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Looks Like I Owe Sander An Apology

21 Apr 2020, 17:04 PM
#21
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

A balance team made up of top modders, unit stat nerds, top players all with years of experience are good at balancing?

You don't say (yes there is sarcasm used here :P)


"No plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force."

Thousands of people playing thousands of games beats any testing been done on any preview. I would say that it doesn't exist in ANY asymmetrical game a good balance team BUT sensible ones. You never achieve complete balance, you just slightly shift the meta without breaking the game while giving player a somehow false, somehow true notion that things are fair and balanced.



So if most high level people agree it's UP but it's used once or twice in a tournament it's balanced?

Hell even the balance team agrees it's UP but don't know how to fix it so they leave it as it is lol.


Units exist in other realms besides OP and UP. One of those is been niche. The PUMA could be tried to be put at 4CP but i don't think the unit been present on a single commander should be ever be made meta or too reliable.
If OH struggles against LV it should be the 222 and pak (recently buffed) job to hold the faction together. It's been proved that with enough pressure and aggressiveness OH players are able to bleed out SU who struggles in the transition between early game towards T70.
21 Apr 2020, 17:13 PM
#22
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Units exist in other realms besides OP and UP. One of those is been niche. The PUMA could be tried to be put at 4CP but i don't think the unit been present on a single commander should be ever be made meta or too reliable.
If OH struggles against LV it should be the 222 and pak (recently buffed) job to hold the faction together. It's been proved that with enough pressure and aggressiveness OH players are able to bleed out SU who struggles in the transition between early game towards T70.


Well my idea was that if 4CP is too early and 5CP is too late, you can find a middle ground somehow. The best approach in my view would be to put the Puma at 4CP, increase the cost to 350mp 90 fuel, and increase the build time by about 10 seconds. That way it becomes a significant investment, is less of a reactionary pick and still arrives at an early enough point to do its job. If that’s still too good then maybe the commander could be nerfed by replacing smoke on vehicles with a stuka smoke run.
21 Apr 2020, 18:09 PM
#23
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1954


Earlier posts:

I am simply asking if they will walk away if a big tournament ends up being ruined because of their decisions. Nothing more nothing less.

No it’s not, it’s the bare minimum anyone with dignity would do. If you and anyone else has an issue with me raising that point, let me be extremely clear: I don’t give a shit.

It’s not about “my request”. It’s not even a request. I’m just bringing to people’s attention that there is a responsibility that has to be accepted and if a big tournament is ruined then someone needs to take responsibility from it.



I wasn’t proven wrong. I said Brits OP, this was not shot down at all.

I didn’t call for anyone’s resignation, I asked if there would be consequences if the tournament is ruined.

Learning english is fun, I recommend it.

I’m also done debunking the same stupidity every day.


You didn't call for their resignation, you just said that they should "walk away" if the tournament was ruined. Tell me, now that the tournament wasn't ruined, are consequences only for some people, or do you not have the bare minimum dignity that you expected from the balance team?

21 Apr 2020, 18:16 PM
#24
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Apr 2020, 10:56 AMLago


I'd like to see it go back to 20% DR but not affect teammates


Works for me. I know people think the current CP4 is useless but the old one was absurdly OP in team games
21 Apr 2020, 18:45 PM
#25
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Keep in mind when trying to up the CP dage reduction that grens now already get a 10% damage reduction at vet 3. 30% would be ungodly.... I'd sooner the CP become a proper officer unit that rewards good play instead of a passive that makes even bad players better.
21 Apr 2020, 18:47 PM
#26
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1

Keep in mind when trying to up the CP dage reduction that grens now already get a 10% damage reduction at vet 3. 30% would be ungodly.... I'd sooner the CP become a proper officer unit that rewards good play instead of a passive that makes even bad players better.


I thought Grens already got 20% DR.
CT Aura being 10% post nerf, so you can get 30% DR in game right now, which is all kind so silly.
OST UP though. Worst Faction. Kappaccino.
21 Apr 2020, 18:49 PM
#27
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



I thought Grens already got 20% DR.
CT Aura being 10% post nerf, so you can get 30% DR in game right now, which is all kind so silly.
OST UP though. Worst Faction. Kappaccino.

I thought it was only 10 but I've been wrong before. If it is 20% then absolutely no to CP going back to 20% that would be utterly insane
21 Apr 2020, 19:00 PM
#28
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 682

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Apr 2020, 10:52 AMKatitof
Given the shitstorm before the tournament, you're not the only one who owes apology to balance team as a whole.


I agree. Calling out people like miragefla was pretty cringeworthy and sad.
21 Apr 2020, 21:01 PM
#29
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1

What happened this patch? The reactions to it seem so hostile here. I expect that on the other forums, but not this one.
21 Apr 2020, 21:40 PM
#30
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3



I thought Grens already got 20% DR.
CT Aura being 10% post nerf, so you can get 30% DR in game right now, which is all kind so silly.
OST UP though. Worst Faction. Kappaccino.


0.8 * 0.9 = -28% :(
21 Apr 2020, 21:54 PM
#31
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

What happened this patch? The reactions to it seem so hostile here. I expect that on the other forums, but not this one.


People hate UKF since CoH1.
21 Apr 2020, 22:41 PM
#32
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 309

I look forward to trying the puma changes for Ostheer! Also I've been told, from a source I will not name, that UKF is the troll faction. I don't mind them being in the game though
22 Apr 2020, 00:47 AM
#33
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 479

Or maybe we slightly tone the T-70 down so Ostheer doesn't need to have the 222/Puma buffed further to deal with it imo.
22 Apr 2020, 03:25 AM
#34
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1


I thought it was only 10 but I've been wrong before. If it is 20% then absolutely no to CP going back to 20% that would be utterly insane


DR is hard to balance since numbers are usually very small, makes knowing the hidden stats even harder, I have no idea if it stacks additively or multiplicatively.
22 Apr 2020, 04:19 AM
#35
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1954



DR is hard to balance since numbers are usually very small, makes knowing the hidden stats even harder, I have no idea if it stacks additively or multiplicatively.


I think everything in COH2 is multiplicative. For example, a 2% penetration bulletin takes the base number and multiplies it by 1.02. A PTRS with 80 (or whatever it is) would have 81.6 pen after the bulletin. If it was shooting at something with an armor of 240, it would have had about a 33% chance to pen. With the 2% bulletin, the chance would go to 34%, not 35%. I think RA bonuses work the same way. For example, if a squad had a base 10% and a vet 3 20%, their received accuracy would be 0.8*0.9=.72 at vet 3.

The RA numbers end up being a little counter intuitive. With the 0.8 and 0.9 example, you might think you're getting less by stacking since the total RA would be -0.28, but the squad is 1/0.72 = 1.39 or 39% stronger.

22 Apr 2020, 04:46 AM
#36
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2020, 00:47 AMClarity
Or maybe we slightly tone the T-70 down so Ostheer doesn't need to have the 222/Puma buffed further to deal with it imo.


And by doing so, you need to bring the whole T3 to arrive sooner. The performance atm is tied to how late it arrives compared to all other lights.
22 Apr 2020, 06:06 AM
#37
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1701

T70 is fine man, no need to come sooner, come on.
22 Apr 2020, 09:54 AM
#38
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



And by doing so, you need to bring the whole T3 to arrive sooner. The performance atm is tied to how late it arrives compared to all other lights.

or you can simply make the T-70 a bit cheaper.

Lowering the power level of unit should create less issues.
22 Apr 2020, 15:22 PM
#39
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

well it was expected that it would not be so op, i mean look at the valentine, it's not super used they come around the same time too
22 Apr 2020, 15:52 PM
#40
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2020, 09:54 AMVipper

or you can simply make the T-70 a bit cheaper.

Lowering the power level of unit should create less issues.


How much cheaper can you go?

T70 is 70f 260mp IIRC. The "problem" is the discrepancy between factions, on how much manpower they are paying to tech at different timings during the game, not the total teching cost for a normal build order.

At around 4 mins you start trading less effectively with Soviets. Flamer engineer is the most you will get out of the faction till the T70.
As you could see in the finals how players abuse this to bleed out soviets from mp and map control with excellent use of FHT.

We had this same discussion in the past. I think i did the tech cost for all factions except OH but i could do so as well.
Getting T2 + AT nades + Medics + T3 is not a mp effective way to pump out a light vehicle.

Compare that to P2 timing or what most people did during the tournament with Prostruppen play.
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