Someone have use the M20 lately?

Hardly make an argument for it, should we remove the flamethrower from pioneers and engineers because they have mines? Should we remove the zook from SP since they also have mines?

M20 is meant to be build for early aggressive play but it can't do it anymore since it doesn't come anymore enough early and can't defend itself if the lieutenant isn't nearby.

You're comparing one of the worst upgrades in the game (sturm pschreck) to mines that can 1 shot light vehicles like the puma and luchs and immobilize anything larger including heavies. I think there's a disconnect there.

Trying to kill an M20 without 2x rak/pak cheese is difficult if you don't overextend with a 222/luchs/puma. The same way it's difficult to kill a sniper as USF/OKW without a designated counter. I'm not the best player in this game, but I don't usually lose the M20 unless I get outplayed, cheesed or start diving with it.

My biggest gripe with it is that I have to tech into full LT which is mediocre in teamgames because then I have to pay extra to get the OP as sin pak howitzer.

They still have a use in team games. You can't always keep armor from getting behind the front lines so the M20 mines on roads sometimes save low-health tanks or mobile arty. I get them more often when I can't get regular doctrinal mines. The AA on it is really good after it is vetted up. They're also good at keeping MG's on your flank from getting flanked.

They also help end mismatches faster and can be really good if your opponent doesn't know how to counter.

If I had any complaints about it, it would be that they should have reduced the cost of the skirts down to around 20 munis after taking away the bazooka.

I love it in teamgames. Almost no one expects to hit M20 mines against USF unless they see you planting them or they're actually decent and sweep before sending in tanks.

I think the skirts are expensive, but the only thing USF is buying is weapon upgrades and grenades. Taking away skirt pricing to any extent means faster BARs/zooks which can just give USF an earlier powerspike, something they currently do not need.

I love it in teamgames. Almost no one expects to hit M20 mines against USF unless they see you planting them or they're actually decent and sweep before sending in tanks.

Yeah and with it's vision you should be able to cancel any mines they might be about to spot you planting. Any mine CAN win you a game but the m20 mines are on a whole other level

Riegel mines are 50 munitions. The M20 mines are more expensive however because (on top of dealing immobilization crits) they deal 400 damage rather than the Riegel's 320 and can OHK light vehicles as well as immobilize anything else.

And non-doc

I think they're still decent, but they could perhaps do with not having to buy their skirts.

I think they're still decent, but they could perhaps do with not having to buy their skirts.

that would make OP compared to 221

I love it in teamgames. Almost no one expects to hit M20 mines against USF unless they see you planting them or they're actually decent and sweep before sending in tanks.

I think the skirts are expensive, but the only thing USF is buying is weapon upgrades and grenades. Taking away skirt pricing to any extent means faster BARs/zooks which can just give USF an earlier powerspike, something they currently do not need.

Are there any abilities that reveal mines besides sweepers, or that cause the M20'S location to the other team (now that the flashlight truck lost its x-ray vision)? I've had a couple games where people would come up to the edge of a mine but not run it over, even without a sweeper nearby. In one of those, somebody dove a couple stugs in between a teammate and I, killed a couple vehicles, then made a 140 degree turn and went straight for my M20 which had been laying mines on the side of the map. It felt like a maphack but I don't know if those are real or not.

Are there any abilities that reveal mines besides sweepers, or that cause the M20'S location to the other team (now that the flashlight truck lost its x-ray vision)? I've had a couple games where people would come up to the edge of a mine but not run it over, even without a sweeper nearby. In one of those, somebody dove a couple stugs in between a teammate and I, killed a couple vehicles, then made a 140 degree turn and went straight for my M20 which had been laying mines on the side of the map. It felt like a maphack but I don't know if those are real or not.

Anything that gives vision. If it was prepatch there was the IRHT. Spotting scopes are an issue as always. 222 etc.

As noted m20 also has extra range on it vision, making it a cheap spotter.

I use the M20 in team games. Its a super mobile sniper with that .50 cal and having access to better mines is always a plus. At vet 2, its a speed demon.

Anything outside of a medium tank or correctly placed ATG can't kill it. I use it at max range to slowly dps down infantry.

Going from the M20 to the 222 feels like swapping out a Super Soaker for a Shotgun.

The vehicle is really unimpressive for its cost now. Losing out on Captain tech to do so makes it feel even worse.

the triple nerf maybe was a bit too much

- zook removed
- Lieutenant tech time nerfed hard
- M20 build time nerfed

Anything that gives vision. If it was prepatch there was the IRHT. Spotting scopes are an issue as always. 222 etc.

I used one against your team a few days ago. It was having a happy life until one of your teammates thought it was worth a shot from their JT.

the triple nerf maybe was a bit too much

- zook removed
- Lieutenant tech time nerfed hard
- M20 build time nerfed

In 3v3 or 4v4 it does seem to come in awfully late.

that would make OP compared to 221

Except that 221 comes like an entire 2 minutes before.

Except that 221 comes like an entire 2 minutes before.

Nerf both of them to be safe.

Nerf both of them to be safe.

wot

wot

Well you quoted Vipper, he usually wants everything nerfed.

M20 rush is awkward to say the least. 2 rifles into LT > M20 is almost always sacrificing your early game because of the slow teching and building time. I mean why go 3 rifles into an M20 when 50 fuel further down the line you can get a stuart, not to mention you get a lot more map control with going 3 rifles first.

I wish the M20 had a faster build time, the unit itself is in a super good spot no need to change.
Also the 221 arguments here are valid but imo the 221 arrives a lot faster without having to tech, only needing the truck to be build.

M20 rush is awkward to say the least. 2 rifles into LT > M20 is almost always sacrificing your early game because of the slow teching and building time. I mean why go 3 rifles into an M20 when 50 fuel further down the line you can get a stuart, not to mention you get a lot more map control with going 3 rifles first.

I wish the M20 had a faster build time, the unit itself is in a super good spot no need to change.
Also the 221 arguments here are valid but imo the 221 arrives a lot faster without having to tech, only needing the truck to be build.

Building a truck is "teching".

The armor of the m20 once upgraded is to high to come earlier.

As I have suggested in another thread the m20 could become builable with LT with no other other tech and probably with less fuel while the skirts could be locked behind the tech while have the munition cost changed to fuel.

That would allow the vehicle to be cheaper and come earlier so it can counter snipers while being susceptible to small arm fire so there is counter play available.

Building a truck is "teching".

The armor of the m20 once upgraded is to high to come earlier.

As I have suggested in another thread the m20 could become builable with LT with no other other tech and probably with less fuel while the skirts could be locked behind the tech while have the munition cost changed to fuel.

That would allow the vehicle to be cheaper and come earlier so it can counter snipers while being susceptible to small arm fire so there is counter play available.

I’m not sure if you can call building the truck itself teching, it’s a unit. You still have the building choice unlike the USF lock yourself into LT or Cp building.

That’s a nice solution!