Panther

This post deserves its own tread.

This forum doesn't deserve you man

I am inclined to agree with this sentiment......

Whether this ends up been implemented or been a good idea at all, it's worth discussing. The people has spoken, make a thread

Thanks, everyone. I'll make it a thread in a little bit, but I want to write the idea up a little bit better first.

Just so I don't waste a bunch of time; it is possible to set target sizes higher than 26, right?

snip

So basically allow subtler changes since the minimum unit of target size is 1 and that hamstrings adjustments that would require a smaller unit.

+1

Thanks, everyone. I'll make it a thread in a little bit, but I want to write the idea up a little bit better first.

Just so I don't waste a bunch of time; it is possible to set target sizes higher than 26, right?

That would probably be a question to ask to modders in general. To see if someone had found an issue with it.

Reminder that just because it seems inocuos at first, anything that happens in coding has unexpected consequences.

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Good post. I've thought about how increasing target sizes could give us a lot more room to work with before. However, there are several implications (the smallest vehicles becoming very hard to hit for example) and it would require a tremendous amount of work and time to finetune everything. This can not realistically be done for CoH2 at this point.

I think the best way to balance the panther is by changing blitz.

Blitz gives increased moving accuracy on top of the other existing bonuses. But, once the bonus is up, the tank suffers a movement penalty for ten or 15 seconds.

The idea is to make the panther strong chasing TDs and other tanks, but you must choose your moments wisely. Also, your opponent has a reason to build medium tanks again instead of spamming tds.

Just so I don't waste a bunch of time; it is possible to set target sizes higher than 26, right?

I can't see why it wouldn't be possible (but my modding knowledge is limited). I do see Sander saying it would be too difficult to do at this point

Either way it's worth discussing in it's own thread. It's a great idea and would probably have some implications for coh3! Assuming it exists

Good post. I've thought about how increasing target sizes could give us a lot more room to work with before. However, there are several implications (the smallest vehicles becoming very hard to hit for example) and it would require a tremendous amount of work and time to finetune everything. This can not realistically be done for CoH2 at this point.

I know the initial change would a heap of work as well, but in theory, would JUST doubling the target size and halving the accuracy be possible? No heavy tuning just widening the number range? Then it would leave finer tuning open as an avenue for you guys thereafter, even if not used initially

I know the initial change would a heap of work as well, but in theory, would JUST doubling the target size and halving the accuracy be possible? No heavy tuning just widening the number range?

Even that would be a massive amount of work. The editor is a mess (tons of unused units and weapons, some units are duplicated for singleplayer while others share stats with mp, etc.) so there would be like 200 weapons that would all need to be changed manually. And then the target size of structures like bunkers would have to be changed too.

Even that would be a massive amount of work. The editor is a mess (tons of unused units and weapons, some units are duplicated for singleplayer while others share stats with mp, etc.) so there would be like 200 weapons that would all need to be changed manually. And then the target size of structures like bunkers would have to be changed too.

Ouch. 10-4

Does target size have to be a whole number? Or could you theoretically use decimal numbers like for infantry? That could help give a wider range for size tuning could it not?

I think the best way to balance the panther is by changing blitz.

Blitz gives increased moving accuracy on top of the other existing bonuses. But, once the bonus is up, the tank suffers a movement penalty for ten or 15 seconds.

The idea is to make the panther strong chasing TDs and other tanks, but you must choose your moments wisely. Also, your opponent has a reason to build medium tanks again instead of spamming tds.

Try this. Play around with the numbers if you like.

We need to adjust something on this unit to make it more rewarding vs tds, but make it less frustrating for medium tanks. As of now, you see a panther you spam tds.

Even that would be a massive amount of work. The editor is a mess (tons of unused units and weapons, some units are duplicated for singleplayer while others share stats with mp, etc.) so there would be like 200 weapons that would all need to be changed manually. And then the target size of structures like bunkers would have to be changed too.

If someone makes a mod, does that make the change faster to be implemented in any way?

Either way it's worth discussing in it's own thread. It's a great idea and would probably have some implications for coh3! Assuming it exists

Thread

Ouch. 10-4

Does target size have to be a whole number? Or could you theoretically use decimal numbers like for infantry? That could help give a wider range for size tuning could it not?

This is an interesting question, and something I didn't realize. Decimal values are used for infantry, so I would think they should work for vehicles. If they do, then nothing needs to be doubled or halved, and it should be a lot easier (although, still a lot of work) to implement.

If someone makes a mod, does that make the change faster to be implemented in any way?

No. Mods can not simply be copied into the game files. Each patch, every single change has to be manually replicated on Relic's side. Which is one of the reasons the live patches can take so long to make.

No. Mods can not simply be copied into the game files. Each patch, every single change has to be manually replicated on Relic's side. Which is one of the reasons the live patches can take so long to make.

While that's pretty much expected (mods aren't patches); would "test mods" improve the working and/or iteration speed of official (and preview) patches?

For example, let's say there's some change the balance team and/or community wants to make - for the sake of discussion, nerfing the M36's moving accuracy multiplier. Chances are, the first value anyone tries (mod maker or balance team) won't be the 'perfect' value; however, a mod maker could iterate changes much faster than the official preview patches. For example, on Monday they could try 0.6, on Wens 0.5, on Fri 0.55, etc. With much faster iterations, we could figure out what the ideal value (or close to it) is quite quickly, and then the balance team could implement that value.

This could prevent issues such as the perceived under-performance of the IRHT, which was only iterated on (publicly) twice, before the final release.

This would, however, require excellent communication between the balance team, mod team, and community; the mod team and community would need to propose ideas that are possible to implement by the balance team (so no ST animation changes, or changes to every infantry squad), and the balance team would need to share their ideas with the mod team ("we were thinking of trying X for the next patch" and/or "the scope of the next patch is Y").

Effectively: Community made test mod -> official patch preview mod -> official patch

Effectively: Community made test mod -> official patch preview mod -> official patch

A very good idea

I'd personally would like the Panther more geared to killing premium medium tanks, heavies and non-640 medium tanks. Axis already have a lot of units geared to killing mediums and since Axis don't have anti-heavy TDs, that should be the Panthers role.

It would need adjustment and testing, but it'd focus on having a 200 damage gun vs those types of units along with possible penetration adjustments.

Even if it was accurate, most mediums can be defeated by a variety of other units. You can already dives lightly supported TDs with blitzing PIVs that are around earlier, can mop up infantry and put pressure throughout the map for less cost, pop, and in the case of Ostheer, tech.

"But mirage, it would club the Comet and T34/85!"

That's kind of its point of deploying the Panther. If the enemy is bringing the higher end tanks to the field, this is what is going to be fielded. And it's AI isn't super crazy so there is still ATG support, TDs, snares, etc.

Been saying this for years, Panther needs 200 damage to have a real profile (heavy/Predium killer) instead of a SuperStuG and 200 damage would achieve that.

Accuracy on the move should be slightly higher, but thats about it. Compensate the ROF to get the same DPS.

Actually, StuG could use some love as well, being the shortest range light/medium TDs, they should get the same armor as OST PzIV to be able to do their job effectively without being forced to spam them all the time.

If you are buffing damage then you should nerf the range advantage Panther has over other meds.

If you are buffing damage then you should nerf the range advantage Panther has over other meds.

Why? 200 damage will have zero impact on mediums save for premium mediums. It will take the exact same number of shots to kill a t34 with 200 damage as it will at 160.

Why? 200 damage will have zero impact on mediums save for premium mediums. It will take the exact same number of shots to kill a t34 with 200 damage as it will at 160.

Increasing damage to 200 is a 25% damage increase for the Panther. The Panther already has several aspects which make it superior to other meds such as its HP, frontal armour, penetration, average reload time and range. The Panther does a lot of things well, it doesn't need a damage buff. The Panther has faster reload time than a default Sherman!

If I were to give the Panther a damage buff, I would only do it if it had the ability to change ammo to better ammo (similar to USF 76 Sherman). The better ammo would have longer reload times, less range but more damage. Or a munitions activated ability like HVAP-T from the Jackson but munitions cost needs to be around the 80 muni mark like Tulip rockets.

Sure it would have the same amount of shots to kill a T-34 as it would at 160 but it would be different for different tanks.

It would take less shots to kill a M10 Tank Destroyer for example. From 4 shots to 3. It would likely destroy light tanks far quicker than 160.

Overall, I think the damage of tank rounds should never be changed. The current balance is that only big boi guns such as ISU-152, King Tiger (not even Tiger or IS-2), Pak 43, KV-2 are the ones that do more than 160. A medium tank with more than 160 damage and is not ability activated (like HVAP-T or HVAP for Pershing) is too overpowered.

I like the idea of 200 damage but I don't like the idea of a highly durable, manuvable tank.

Especially taking in blitz, it would be too much (command panther with Mark vehical and panther using heat round).

Same approach worked very well in COH1, where Panther was that very expensive, but super durable, hard hitting tank killer that could prevent the Allied mediums overrunning everything in the late game and allowed other Wehrmacht armor to operate effectively and often saved the day.

Its basically designed to slightly tip the armor game balance towards Wehr's favour, which is integral since Wehr is a reactive faction in the early game, and by design, it is to be carried by its tanks and generally trying to achieve tank superiority in the late game, not by its infantry .

Besides the current Panther, while effective, is more of an odd fast firing Superstug but nowhere near invulnerable to AT threats and can be easily lost if you are overextending just a bit too much.

Higher alpha strike ability is what this unit needs to be a deterrent and effective counter to predium spamming strategies. Of course you need to reduce the rate of fire by the same amount, so DPS would remain the same but geared towards a different goal.