(as Faust only snares with a chance, unlike Allied ones which are 100%)
???
3) Faust only has 15 range. Ram can start from easily triple that range.
Just a small clarification but that's OKW faust. Gren faust has more range than other snares.
Ram + Offmap combo needs to be nerfed
7 Apr 2020, 14:41 PM
#101
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
???
Just a small clarification but that's OKW faust. Gren faust has more range than other snares.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
7 Apr 2020, 14:44 PM
#102
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
My comparison as to why i think the specific offmap is the problem:
Sander's comment regarding the strafe
Indeed, but the effectiveness (cost ratio) and execution is not equal with the IL2 bombing strike or OW AT arty.
IL2 AT strafe: 100 muni
IL2 Bombing: 200mu
AT OW: 200mu
Time to hit.
IL2 AT strafe: from border of the map 4s. Because the plane seems to track and shoot from far away.
From the longest possible time on test range map 10s.
IL2 Bombing: at same point around 9s. The plane has to get closer and the bombs take longer to hit. Longest time 15s.
AT OW: for the first shell i seems to take variable times which is around 5s. To receive a similar amount of damage as the IL2 AT strafe, it needs to stay for ±23s on the area without moving. If the heavy tank (i was using Tiger as reference) is neither engine damage or if the ability is casted on dead center around the tank, the Tiger just survives find taking minimal damage at times.
Closest comparison should be the (extinct) single AT Stuka Strafe. Cost 110 muni, takes 2s longer compared to IL2 AT strafe but it can randomly produced different criticals. On 10 attempts i got 3 engine damage and 2 vehicle crew injured. Damage varies heavily depending on hitting angle.
Sander's comment regarding the strafe
What we could try is giving it lower penetration (around 90) and adding deflection damage of something like 50%. That way it will still be lethal to snared/rammed mediums and Panthers (guaranteed rear armor pens and even with deflection damage when hitting the front armor the rockets should do enough damage to kill a 50-75% hp medium tank) while reducing the effectiveness against heavies by around 33-50% as most have around 150 rear armor. Essentially the same was done for AT Overwatch.
But the commander will already take quite a hit with the increased SVT cost, so it's probably better to wait and see if it'll still be needed to go after the AT strafe too.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
7 Apr 2020, 15:27 PM
#103
Posts: 1289
U just dont get it or ?
its in a VERY STRONG doctrin
it take 0 risk
U can trade ur T34 with already does alot dmg to inf earlier ... for an axis heavy !
its like "here is an ability that puts an 88 on a 222" just for 200mun.
and thats not all. The doctrin u pick to counter the ISU has this combo... which counters his counter
Think of a immobilisation shot on the Stug ... just to ALWAYS Stuka it into dust with 0%chance to counter it.
I dont get that ram is not the problem? A 4 click combo is not a one click wipe?
A garanteed loss of 300 mp 90 fuel plus ammo is not 0 risk?
Did you mis or porpusly did not read where i said i agree with nerf time to bomb/missle strike or increase the price?
That the t34 can hurt inf is beside the issue. Anything that the t34 can ram can hurt inf as well and most of those do it better then a t34/76.
The stug immobilisation shot does not cost you the stug 100% of the time or immobilize the stug itself. So comparing them directly is grasping at straws. Please stop.
7 Apr 2020, 15:46 PM
#104
Posts: 2358
Give the AT rocket strafe the same treatment as the frag bombs plane. Make it faster but delay its arrival.
If both skillplanes have a more delay (more than the ram stun+ram charge) the abilities are not hardly nerfed, and the combo requires more skill to pull off. If it can be missed easily, it cant be abused.
On the other side, a different approach would be making ram do different effects on the tank it rams into. If its a light, make it take full damage but no downsides on the T34. If its a medium, both tanks suffer engine damage, but not gun damage. If its a heavy tank, make it damage the gun, but not the engine, the t34 gets heavy engine and gun damage aswell.
No one is mentioning that T34 ram was also a last resource measure, a 1Hp ramming T34 can do the same as a fresh new ramming T34.
If both skillplanes have a more delay (more than the ram stun+ram charge) the abilities are not hardly nerfed, and the combo requires more skill to pull off. If it can be missed easily, it cant be abused.
On the other side, a different approach would be making ram do different effects on the tank it rams into. If its a light, make it take full damage but no downsides on the T34. If its a medium, both tanks suffer engine damage, but not gun damage. If its a heavy tank, make it damage the gun, but not the engine, the t34 gets heavy engine and gun damage aswell.
No one is mentioning that T34 ram was also a last resource measure, a 1Hp ramming T34 can do the same as a fresh new ramming T34.
7 Apr 2020, 16:10 PM
#106
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
from another similar thread:
The T-34 ram + off map is rather easy combo to pull to and it also rather cheesy.
So I would suggested some of following changes:
T-34/85
Ram removed, cap territory replaced by a more interesting ability like a smoke round or a round similar to Pershing.
T-34/76
Ram moved to vet 1 cap territory removed or move to vet 0.
Ability now scale with veterancy.
Possible bonuses, reducing engine overheat chance, immobilize critical replaced with engine damage at vet 3, increase penetration.
Other possible changes:
Stun enemy vehicle only on penetration, timed weapon disable on deflection
Ram replaced with "flank" speed an ability that increases sped of the vehicle on straight line more like a skill shot. At vet 1 replaced by a similar ability that can also ram.
7 Apr 2020, 16:34 PM
#107
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
all the while having a considerably worse snare than the allied counterparts(as Faust only snares with a chance, unlike Allied ones which are 100%),
What on Earth are you talking about?
T34 ram + IL2 rocket/bombs is horrible and needs to be nerfed somehow. At least the the IL2 bombs it costs a lot and only works on heavy tanks but the IL2 rockets arrive so fast most of the time not even a Panther or P4 gets out alive.
Then isn't the rocket strike clearly the issue? Not ram?
7 Apr 2020, 16:57 PM
#108
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
What on Earth are you talking about?
Then isn't the rocket strike clearly the issue? Not ram?
Ram+Il2 bombs would be fine if they didnt come in a doctrine with ISU and making the only counters to ISU cancer very vulnerable to getting two clicked.
7 Apr 2020, 17:04 PM
#109
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Ram+Il2 bombs would be fine if they didnt come in a doctrine with ISU and making the only counters to ISU cancer very vulnerable to getting two clicked.
Thats a fair point. It also already has Mark Target which is more than enough help against fighting tanks
Not to mention guards you can button with to setup this exact move
7 Apr 2020, 17:22 PM
#110
Posts: 682
The stug immobilisation shot does not cost you the stug 100% of the time or immobilize the stug itself. So comparing them directly is grasping at straws. Please stop.
Do you actually know what it does?
/s
7 Apr 2020, 17:39 PM
#111
Posts: 1289
Do you actually know what it does?
Yes i do. I responded to some one who compared stug twp and stuka bomb to t34 ram and il2.
Right now it makes the tank blind and prevents it from shooting. But because it doesnt stun lock anymore (almost 100% garanteing a kill on a med or below) very few people use it.
7 Apr 2020, 18:39 PM
#112
Posts: 1515
It doesn't stop Axis players to build heavy tanks every single game. Is it OP or simply frustrating to be outplayed on one move that can seal the game?
I don't know why Heavy tanks shouldn't share the same mechanism as any other unit in game. Because they are expensive? Well that is your problem if you lose such expensive unit like that.
Mines win game we all say, but mines are one of the cheapest artefact in game and we all seem fine with it. And in this particular case mines can save your heavy tanks from raming.
Well said. It's a toxic combination, but an effective one. OKW has non doctrinal heavies and soviets, unless they take a heavy tank commander, have no heavies or anything that can reliably win vs a heavy. This combination is a good one (and is commander specific). Don't complain about it.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
https://coh2stats.com/players/76561198031032150
7 Apr 2020, 18:53 PM
#113
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
What if the speed boost of ram was removed and ram was performed by simply the tank going full speed just like in regular gameplay into the ram?
7 Apr 2020, 18:56 PM
#114
Posts: 960
See the issue is you keep trying to stop it when it has already begun. Try stopping it BEFORE. You can do this by spotting for your tank (as in not having it the front line unit) and having literally any for of AT nearby and a snare nearby. These are super simply things you should be doing ANYWAYS but doing these now will help prevent ram. You only need 1 hit to get the t34 in snare levels.
This is an incredibly dangerous argument to make, as it opens the door to a lot of overpowered nonsense.
Back when the JT 2-shot most mediums? Just scout ahead and make sure not to approach it from the front.
Back when the OST mortar's barrage fired in full auto with laser precision? Just scout ahead and don't put weapon teams in range.
Back when Partisans/Falls/etc. could pop out of any building and use abilities instantly? Just put wire/mines on every door, and don't build your arty near buildings.
Balance arguments needs to be made around the ability, not the presence of the unit. Otherwise the counter to 99% of the things in the game turn into "just don't let your opponent get the unit".
Well said. It's a toxic combination, but an effective one. OKW has non doctrinal heavies and soviets, unless they take a heavy tank commander, have no heavies or anything that can reliably win vs a heavy. This combination is a good one (and is commander specific). Don't complain about it.
Su-85s deal with heaviest just fine.
Opinions reflect all team modes (not 1v1)
I often edit my posts several times after posting
I often edit my posts several times after posting
7 Apr 2020, 19:07 PM
#115
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
This is an incredibly dangerous argument to make, as it opens the door to a lot of overpowered nonsense.
Its only dangerous if you take one sentence from his post and drag it out of context. In the context of an ability that essentially sacrifices the tank, asking someone to scout ahead for that is not exactly asking a lot
Comparing it to when the JT firing 320 damage shots at 85 range is pretty ridiculous
The rocket strike on airborne is the issue here, not ram
7 Apr 2020, 19:52 PM
#116
Posts: 2358
Its only dangerous if you take one sentence from his post and drag it out of context.
You are taking doomlord52 out of context aswell...
In the context of an ability that essentially sacrifices the tank, asking someone to scout ahead for that is not exactly asking a lot
1st. The tank sacrificed is a lot cheaper than the target tank.
2nd. Doomlord52 argument is you cant react fast enough to a ramming tank.
3rd. It takes a lot more effort to scout ahead for a stray tank that can instantly perform the ram+skillplane combo than stopping the T34 effectively. You need a dmg source+snare or 4 penned shots.
Comparing it to when the JT firing 320 damage shots at 85 range is pretty ridiculous
Comparing it to when the JT firing 320 damage shots at 85 range is pretty ridiculous
...
Its not ridiculous at all, the examples shows how much of preparation and precaution is needed to avoid cheese, (2 shotting mediums, laser guided mortar, pop up infantry and wipe) are examples similar to a -Ramming speed™- T34 coming up from behind a bush, a debris or simply behind a smoke cloud. On all the mentioned cases you need to set up defenses way before the event occurs.
7 Apr 2020, 19:53 PM
#117
Posts: 960
Its only dangerous if you take one sentence from his post and drag it out of context. In the context of an ability that essentially sacrifices the tank, asking someone to scout ahead for that is not exactly asking a lot
Comparing it to when the JT firing 320 damage shots at 85 range is pretty ridiculous
The rocket strike on airborne is the issue here, not ram
How is it out of context? The premise of thedarkarmadillo's argument is that the ability (Ram) is fine, since it can be countered by not allowing the opponent the opportunity to use it. It shifts the focus of the entire discussion from the ability itself, to countering the unit.
As a comparison (and yes, it's supposed to be extreme), we can shift the focus from the JT's past absurd damage (in this context, its attack was the ability) to simply not allowing the JT to use this ability.
It's the same argument.
As for the rocket strike being the problem; how so? It follows all of the rules of off-map abilities; it drops red smoke, it has a delay, the plane itself can be countered (although it is a bit fast). By itself, the rocket strike is essentially 'on the curve' in comparison to other abilities.
Opinions reflect all team modes (not 1v1)
I often edit my posts several times after posting
I often edit my posts several times after posting
7 Apr 2020, 20:05 PM
#118
Posts: 682
Yes i do. I responded to some one who compared stug twp and stuka bomb to t34 ram and il2.
Right now it makes the tank blind and prevents it from shooting. But because it doesnt stun lock anymore (almost 100% garanteing a kill on a med or below) very few people use it.
Okay. Was just curious. You called it the "stug immobilisation shot" so I was confused
/s
7 Apr 2020, 20:25 PM
#119
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
How is it out of context? The premise of thedarkarmadillo's argument is that the ability (Ram) is fine, since it can be countered by not allowing the opponent the opportunity to use it. It shifts the focus of the entire discussion from the ability itself, to countering the unit.
Yes that's precisely because the ability sacrifices the unit. It's pretty unique in that way, which is why you really can't just compare it things like a units standard attack
As a comparison (and yes, it's supposed to be extreme), we can shift the focus from the JT's past absurd damage (in this context, its attack was the ability) to simply not allowing the JT to use this ability.
It's the same argument.
Simply not allowing something to shoot at you from 85 range? That's way harder than preventing a tank from ramming you
As for the rocket strike being the problem; how so? It follows all of the rules of off-map abilities; it drops red smoke, it has a delay, the plane itself can be countered (although it is a bit fast). By itself, the rocket strike is essentially 'on the curve' in comparison to other abilities.
It arrives far faster than most other off-maps, especially considering they just nerfed frag bombs for this exact reason. And you have almost zero chance of shooting it down before the payload arrives, dodging is the only reliable counter
Its also far cheaper than the other notorious ram combo (IL2 precision strike) which requires literally 2x the munitions. 100 munitions is absurdly low for what you get, it can cripple/kill heavy tanks. I mean the soviet incendiary barrage is 120 munitions lol
You are taking doomlord52 out of context aswell...
No I didn't. I responded to his point directly
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