60 range TD

I will say it once more.

"heavy TDs" do not need to have probabilities that are close to 100% at damaging (hitting and penetrating ) mediums at 60 range.

One can start by reducing accuracy at max range and removed accuracy bonuses and allowing some breathing room for meduims see how it goes.

The other way to solve this is simply moving all the lategame TDs and heavies to another time frame. After min 40 or so.

1v1s will hardly seem them, but when they do it will be epic.
4v4s will be healthier since their spam is the big issue (combining two or more players heavies is such a tough nut)

Added: If anyone wonders how. Simple. TRIPLICATE their buildtime.

The other way to solve this is simply moving all the lategame TDs and heavies to another time frame. After min 40 or so.

1v1s will hardly seem them, but when they do it will be epic.
4v4s will be healthier since their spam is the big issue (combining two or more players heavies is such a tough nut)

Added: If anyone wonders how. Simple. TRIPLICATE their buildtime.

*Plays a dirge for Jagdtiger & Tiger Stall*

You mean like how TD's , allied infantry and weapons teams are running riot right now?

The tank destroyer meta needs to go..

If the td meta needs to go, the axis abundance of acces to heavy armour needs to go along with it. Those things go hand in hand. Its funny that people seem to mis this neccesary asymitry.

Before wfa where launced the su85 was a med td and ost t4 a premium tier. Wich the su85 strungled greatly against. But the cost of t4 and its units balanced that out imo. With okw that premium was stock for okw and had a new level on top of that.

Lets not pretend axis have no counters to team weapons and inf please.

You mean like how TD's , allied infantry and weapons teams are running riot right now?

The tank destroyer meta needs to go..

Sorry to disappoint you, but its not gonna happen as long as panthers and KT are stock and tigers are in 95% of games across all modes.

The other way to solve this is simply moving all the lategame TDs and heavies to another time frame. After min 40 or so.

1v1s will hardly seem them, but when they do it will be epic.
4v4s will be healthier since their spam is the big issue (combining two or more players heavies is such a tough nut)

Added: If anyone wonders how. Simple. TRIPLICATE their buildtime.

Or you could decrease their health and increase their front armour so if you manage to flank it takes fewer than 10 rear armour shots to kill them.

How many stock axis vehicles will the Jackson struggle to pen? How many will the SU 85, or the Firefly? And why are we talking about stock vehicles? How often do games get finished without picking a single doctrine? It almost seems like you're purposely diving into semantics in order to

the allied late game TDS are DESIGNED to not struggle with late game armour, the issue is that they dont struggle with mediums either. do try to take note of the stances of whom you are yelling at before accusing them of shit yea? i FREQUENTLY state the jackson and to a lesser extent the su85 are over tuned and need a reduction in performance so cool your jets.

but to continue on that topic, there is exactly 2 allied stock vehicles across 3 factions with enough armour to bounce any axis AT and they cant be built at the same time (comet and churchill) while bosh axis factions contain high armoured units that can bounce standard AT (ost- vetted p4, brum, panther and i THINK the vetted stug can even bounce some shots at range) (okw- p4, panther, jp4, kt)
the reason allied TDs are more equipped to deal with heavy armour is because they are GUARANTEED to face it. either singular axis faction has more stock heavy armour than all allied factions do combined. thats why allied TDs are tuned towards heavy armour. they need a reduction against medium armour though.

its not semantics, its logic. im sorry such an abstract idea confuses you

The prominent armour design of the factions is that "If two vehicles cost exactly the same, the allied one is considerably better"

2 vehicles cost exactly the same and thew axis one in this case has better dps and better range. the allied one has more AOE and better armour. something something asymmetric balance.

Consider this:

A Tiger and 2 Paks facing an IS 2 and 2 Zis. IS 2 hardcounters both Tiger as well as PaKs. Zis guns hardcounter both Tiger as well as PaKs.

The JP4, a tank destroyer enters the field. And gets countered by the very thing it's supposed to counter. The Panther, a 185 premium tank destroyer enters the field. And gets countered by the very thing it's supposed to counter.

Not to mention that no IS 2 is needed to counter all of those expensive vehicles. A simple T-34 ram+strafe combo is A-OK to counter even the most expensive units in the entire game - at no micro cost and 0 chance of counterplay!

i doubt a ram would even be needed to counter your heavy armour, it seems you lack the understanding of basic game function so one could probably just sit with a single AT gun and plink away at your tank.

the jp4 isnt meant to counter heavy armour... you can tell that by it not having the pen to reliably pen heavy armour... you notice how the high pen allied TDs designed to counter hthe high armour vallues of axis armour have high pen but the jp4 very much does NOT have the high pen the allied ones do? its because they have different jobs. can you tag me when you make your thread about how much shock troops suck at max range when compared to obers? its very clear you have no idea how to use certain units and feel its the games fault....

The old adage that was introduced in 2013 of "Doctrinal counters to doctrinal vehicles" only applies to axis. The allies can simply call in a stock unit and counter whatever axis unit they encounter, and usually at a cost advantage that is simply stupefying.

hey im glad you brought up this age old adage! imagine trying to fight the high armour of axis tanks (the ones they have stock) without the high pen of the allied tds! it would be like using a jp4 against an is-2! imagine how absolutely and incomprehensibly stupid you would feel trying to use a jp4 against an is-2. it wouldn't work very well (and i can tell that because while its rof is pretty solid its pen isnt very high)

and to further discuss that, ive said for years that all factions should have the measn to counter units stock. this is also why i support a pen increase for the panther. it would have no effect against anything except heavy armour and would give both factions a more reliable counter to heavy tanks (so the unintelligent among us dont keep trying to use the jp4)

Jump back to quoted post9 Apr 2020, 15:21 PMDomine

I also find it funny that a (barely) breathing reminder of the necessity of eugenics like you would dare shittalk others ...

solid, but i dont shit talk, i speak based on silly things like stats, and strategy. the time i have in teaches me the wisdom of knowing advanced techniques like not trying to counter heavy armour with ma medium TD, but im sure given the time even you too can figure how to use units for their intended role instead of whining like a child on the internet that the round peg doesnt fit in the square hole.

But that's none of my business

Well, this is going to be a long post...


This is kind of an unfair comparison. If we stick entirely to non-dock vehicles, Ost's only "high armor" vehicles are the Panther and Brumbarr, and for OKW, it's the Panther and KT (which is a joke, anyway); so 3 units in total. Yes, that is more, and they are more prominent, than the Coment and Churchill, but there's more to this than stock units. When we look at call ins that the JP4 falls flat (a large portion of the TD argument is regarding Tigers/Ele/JT/etc.).

• IS-2
  
• ISU-152
  
• KV-1
  
• KV-2
  
• KV-8
  
• Churchill AVRE
  
• Churchill Croc
  
• Pershing
  
• Sherman E8

The JP4 will struggle against all of these, since they all have between 215 and 375 armor, meaning a chance to pen between 79% and 45%. Even a panther, with its 220 far pen (but only 50 range) will struggle with these (except the E8), whereas the M36 will only have problems with a few (slow) call-ins.

you neglkected the p4 with skirts, 234 armour is a fair amount of armour... i draw the line of "high armour" where the standard AT gun will stop being 100% reliable, as this means one will begin needing more AT to counter it effectively. it seems like a good baseline

the jp4 will struggle against those the same way a su76 will struggle against axis armour. thats because theyae not designed to fight those units. i listed stock, because oddly enough, (su76 discounted) stock tds are designed to fight what they will face the most of!

allies WILL run into heavy armoured axis tanks, they need to always have a ready to apply unit
axis MIGHT run into heavily armoured allied tanks, and have the counter there in the PANTHER. the WILL however run into 160 armoured tanks, and for that the jp4 is amazing. it does it like it was designed to do that.........because it was.

my ideal balancing is starting from the foundation. all stock factions should have a stock counter to anything the enemy can throw at them. then if there isa doctrinal struggle, the singular unit can be zoned out and tweaked without interrupting the stock balance.

but any rate, the PANTHER not the JP4 is supposed to counter the units you listed, thats why the jp4 doesnt do a good job.


again, i support a pen increase for the panther as it will only effect the high armoured units, and again, the jackson is OP...

How many stock axis vehicles will the Jackson struggle to pen? How many will the SU 85, or the Firefly? And why are we talking about stock vehicles? How often do games get finished without picking a single doctrine? It almost seems like you're purposely diving into semantics in order to

Why should they struggle to pen? They are fucking tank destroyers, if they can't penetrate armor they are literally useless

As Dark said they are too strong against mediums where penetration is not a factor, not late game heavies. The Firefly is completely fine, its mostly M36 and su85 to a lesser degree that are too good

A FF is actually vulnerable to getting rushed by a medium due to its reload time. Originally m36 was also vulnerable to mediums because since it died in 3 shots

Considering the current preview patch is adding new units to UKF, I think it's still possible. I don't know the exact details on how it should be implemented, or what the "post addition" M36 stats should be, but I do think its a possible change.

That's true but adding the officer with a limit of 1 is a much smaller change than rebalancing the entire US late game. Like i said though I'm with you, id rather they try it out than leave the Jackson as a universal armor killer

After the soviets dodged again deserved nerfs in this patch I will lobby here for moving the self spotting ability of the su-85 to vet1.

Or you could decrease their health and increase their front armour so if you manage to flank it takes fewer than 10 rear armour shots to kill them.

How the Su-85 is supposed to do that?
Why Axis could simply rush forward and Allied unit had to always sneak a way to flank?

In This Thread:
Turns out that Tank Destroyers can actually destroy Tanks.
Some people dislike that, hilarious.

In This Thread:
Turns out that Tank Destroyers can actually destroy Tanks.
Some people dislike that, hilarious.

Anti infantry units kill infantry too, but you still have to use them properly and there is still some risk involved. It's called coimterplay and a unit that out guns, out runs and out ranges anything you can throw at it isn't balanced.

Anti infantry units kill infantry too, but you still have to use them properly and there is still some risk involved. It's called coimterplay and a unit that out guns, out runs and out ranges anything you can throw at it isn't balanced.

Smoke and Flank.

After the soviets dodged again deserved nerfs in this patch I will lobby here for moving the self spotting ability of the su-85 to vet1.

++
(C++ nerd here)

Smoke and Flank.

Lets Buff Pz skilltician to stock then, boi