When to reduce Panzerwerfer and Stuka Zee Fuss performance?

How did you set up your experiment? How close to real matches do you consider it was?

Do you realize that pwerfer and wstukas projectiles land almost vertically meanwhile the allied variants have some horizontal velocity in it?

I cant really agree with the argument you bring in unless you really show a correct procedure according the game mechanics.

I agree with serrith about the wiping potential of rocket arty.

I would love to provide you the exact procedures if you could promise me that you will absolutely read every single word of it.
I was going to post our experiment detail in January. Still, after I reviewed my previous posts posted on this website, I realized most people wouldn't give a garden about reading the whole article. Most of them read only the conclusion part and then started to make comments without even knowing what had happened. And this is the reason I chose only to post a conclusion here because people won't read anything else anyway.
So if you really want to read it, I will be happy to rewrite the whole thing and send it to you via a Word Doc next Friday.
And for directly rebranding to your questions, yes, I have considered all of the side effects you mentioned and even beyond them. Rocket trajectory does not affect the time for them to land, it is, however, affecting their chances to be blocked by buildings. And Katy (and Colliape) is the only one that will be heavily by this factor.

I will read it, if course. But I won't promise I will reach the same conclusion unless everything leads me to it.

The high ballistic of pwerfer makes it take longer to hit closer distances

I will read it, if course. But I won't promise I will reach the same conclusion unless everything leads me to it.

The high ballistic of pwerfer makes it take longer to hit closer distances

Sure, I won't expect everyone to acknowledge the same as we do. Tell me a way I am able to send the doc to you on friday.

Why not just copy and paste in this thread. Unless you have more than text?

Why not just copy and paste in this thread. Unless you have more than text?

There are graphs and tables. And I am not quite sure how to copy those here.

There are graphs and tables. And I am not quite sure how to copy those here.

You could always take pictures (PrtSc in Paint, CTRL-V, crop, save as...) of them.

EDIT: Post No. 666

You could always take pictures (PrtSc in Paint, CTRL-V, crop, save as...) of them.

EDIT: Post No. 666

just to add that you can easily upload pictures directly to org as personal files, so no external host is needed

just to add that you can easily upload pictures directly to org as personal files, so no external host is needed

Thanks for you guys help.And here are the screenshots of the article




Make sure to read them before you posting any comments. There are at least four more parts coming up for this test. I'll finish uploading by next Friday.

Thanks for you guys help.And here are the screenshots of the article




Make sure to read them before you posting any comments. There are at least four more parts coming up for this test. I'll finish uploading by next Friday.

There are a few issues with the targets for your tests as Volksgrenadiers aren't exactly the target axis artillery should be firing at, better might be a mix of some teamweapons and mostly baseline infantry force (maybe damaged or down a model) consisting of grenadiers and volksgrenadiers - this will lead to different kills per barrage but shouldn'T really matter as it is mostly about the percentage of units that can survive.
The Calliope could make a nice addition, although it is even more expensive then the stuka and doctrinal.
It might be useful to know the exact positioning of those units and i hope you did use similar firing ranges as yellow cover usually makes units clump more and terrain differences migth lead to different outcomes in the results.
It migth also be worth noting that the Katyusha (or most allied arty pieces for that case) will deny areas for a certain time, while the axis counterpieces only do alpha damage.
Another weak spot for the Pwerfer compared to the Katyusha is the shorter max range and later accessibility (the stuka has the earliest but that is somewhat balanced as the price is pretty high and it delays further tech quite a bit).
The testers (Noobs vs Pros) are troublesome, as the game should be balanced at a high level otherwise tourneys would get onesided and migth be won or lost by a cointoss, not skill.

Thanks for sharing test. They are quite useful and constructive regardless if one agrees on not with the conclusions.

I will read it, if course. But I won't promise I will reach the same conclusion unless everything leads me to it.

The high ballistic of pwerfer makes it take longer to hit closer distances

they do if im not wrong i posted a gif with the test somewhere in the thread comparing it to katy, katy hit the first barrage instantly and when the second barrage hit the pwefer load hit too

but yes please give pwefer only 2 rockets it's op right now, maybe change stuka to have 1 rocket too it's too accurate

What exactly does this prove? You do realize the stuka fires a line barrage while katyushas/panzerwerfers fire a tight circle meaning you get different effectiveness based on enemy formation? Also the most important stat is katyusha short range arrival time, which if you use it properly in game against concentrated support weapons you will wreck them with all 8 rockets from close/medium range.

Also your 2nd test has no value whatsoever. A “noob vs pro predictions” has no practical value. If you want experimental data you can sample from live games.

This thread should've been over after the second post. If there's one thing one is expected to learn after spending time with CoH2 is that you don't balance the game based on 3v3/4v4 spamfest. You don't even take 2v2s into account most of the time when making balance decisions.

There are a few issues with the targets for your tests as Volksgrenadiers aren't exactly the target axis artillery should be firing at, better might be a mix of some teamweapons and mostly baseline infantry force (maybe damaged or down a model) consisting of grenadiers and volksgrenadiers - this will lead to different kills per barrage but shouldn'T really matter as it is mostly about the percentage of units that can survive.
The Calliope could make a nice addition, although it is even more expensive then the stuka and doctrinal.
It might be useful to know the exact positioning of those units and i hope you did use similar firing ranges as yellow cover usually makes units clump more and terrain differences migth lead to different outcomes in the results.
It migth also be worth noting that the Katyusha (or most allied arty pieces for that case) will deny areas for a certain time, while the axis counterpieces only do alpha damage.
Another weak spot for the Pwerfer compared to the Katyusha is the shorter max range and later accessibility (the stuka has the earliest but that is somewhat balanced as the price is pretty high and it delays further tech quite a bit).
The testers (Noobs vs Pros) are troublesome, as the game should be balanced at a high level otherwise tourneys would get onesided and migth be won or lost by a cointoss, not skill.

"There are a few issues with the targets for your tests as Volksgrenadiers aren't exactly the target axis artillery should be firing at, better might be a mix of some teamweapons and mostly baseline infantry force (maybe damaged or down a model) consisting of grenadiers and volksgrenadiers - this will lead to different kills per barrage but shouldn'T really matter as it is mostly about the percentage of units that can survive."
You just answered yourself in your own description.
"The Calliope could make a nice addition, although it is even more expensive then the stuka and doctrinal."
Please, read every single word I wrote.
"It might be useful to know the exact positioning of those units and i hope you did use similar firing ranges as yellow cover usually makes units clump more and terrain differences migth lead to different outcomes in the results."
I should have mentioned it. All blobs I meant are a group of infantries that are very clumped up. In our test, we did not find anything that will be hugely affected by terrain differences.
"The testers (Noobs vs Pros) are troublesome, as the game should be balanced at a high level otherwise tourneys would get onesided and migth be won or lost by a cointoss, not skill."
We did this to prevent the learning curve effect. Not tried to prove anything.

Team weapons countering, dodging, areal deny, and real game analyzing are going to be included in later posts. Now I am just too lazy to post anymore, so yeah, these are here just to show you we did consider them. And I may will just stop here.

Thanks for sharing test. They are quite useful and constructive regardless if one agrees on not with the conclusions.

Thanks bro.

they do if im not wrong i posted a gif with the test somewhere in the thread comparing it to katy, katy hit the first barrage instantly and when the second barrage hit the pwefer load hit too

but yes please give pwefer only 2 rockets it's op right now, maybe change stuka to have 1 rocket too it's too accurate

I should have just set up my own independent topic. I did this test just for our own sake to understand these units better. Not to try to prove which unit needs a nerf or buff. Also, I do not agree to give any nerf to pazerwerfer or Stuka, nor neither for Katy.

This thread should've been over after the second post. If there's one thing one is expected to learn after spending time with CoH2 is that you don't balance the game based on 3v3/4v4 spamfest. You don't even take 2v2s into account most of the time when making balance decisions.

It should have, right? I'll just end here to prevent making more mess.

Thanks for you guys help.And here are the screenshots of the article




Make sure to read them before you posting any comments. There are at least four more parts coming up for this test. I'll finish uploading by next Friday.

I am not going to post further updates. I am just too lazy.

I am not going to post further updates. I am just too lazy.

Should never go half-way on anything.

Sad!

Should never go half-way on anything.

Sad!

I know right? hard being a lazy person.