Tiger Ace Explained

I have actually never used the Tiger Ace myself, only played against it a couple times so sorry if im asking stupid questions.

I remember the Tiger ace causing all income to stopp when it was released, something I thought was a resanoble drawback. Has this changed?

If the patch notes are correct, the Tiger Ace will reduce manpower income by 25% and fuel income by 90% while it's alive.

This is very different to the previous system where the penalty for calling the TA in was fixed at 10 minutes. The punishment for losing the TA was that your income continued to be 0 until the end of that period and you had no TA to compensate.

Under the system suggested by the leaked patch notes, the cost of losing the TA is 800 manpower... which is a lot less than even a normal Tiger (720MP and 200 fuel).

For balance, the new Tiger Ace will have half its previous HPs and half its previous damage.

Make of that what you will - some people call it a nerf, some a rework, some a buff.

if thats a buff, i guess youd rather fight the current tiger ace since its weaker right?

by the way, the "turbo ace" is the same speed as a normal tiger... but im sure you knew that right?

if thats a buff, i guess youd rather fight the current tiger ace since its weaker right?

by the way, the "turbo ace" is the same speed as a normal tiger... but im sure you knew that right?

To your first question, it's like choosing between amputating an arm or a leg At this point, it's impossible to say which one is more OP... which is exactly my point: the TA needs nerfing, not reworking to make it equally OP in a different way.

As to your second point, yes, I did know that, thanks.

so you consider the normal tiger to be a turbo tiger as well then? even though its slower than every single soviet tank except the kv2 and isu152? even the isu152 accelerates faster, but it has .1 less max speed. the tiger has the same acceleration and speed as a kv2. i guess we can start calling that the turbo kv2 also...

The new Tiger Ace is basically nothing but a Vet3 Tiger with an additional ability. How is that "as OP as the old one"? You pay 800 Manpower to get it and additionally have to pay a rather big upkeep. Also it's far less of a Kamikaze tank than you think - losing the tank will reverse the economic effects, but will also cause you to be rather weak until you get some replacements. During the time your TA is on the field you have a very small manpower income. Let's say 80 popcap in your current army, with a TA you then have (300 - 25% = 225 MP/min - ~80 popcap =) 105MP/minute income and most likely you used all your Manpower you had prior to call the TA in.
Keeping the TA alive will mean your opponent can try to just bleed you for more than 105MP/min, causing you to slowly lose your army, but also gives you a really strong all-round vehicle.
Losing the TA will mean you have to fill this gap it's destruction left - yet with close to no Manpower available this will take time.

Try to use it and you'll see it is a lot weaker

so you consider the normal tiger to be a turbo tiger as well then? even though its slower than every single soviet tank except the isu152? even that thing accelerates faster, but it has .1 less max speed. the tiger has the same acceleration and speed as a kv2. i guess we can start calling that the turbo kv2 also...

You're comparing apples and oranges. The Tiger Ace, despite the name, is nothing like the Tiger.

Currently, it costs nothing up front but around 2000 manpower and 300 fuel and munitions (depending on your map control) over 10 minutes but offers a huge advantage as it's way more powerful than any unit in the game and destroys every counter that exists for German armour with ease. It's very important to understand that you are going to pay this price (2000/300/300) regardless of what you do with the tank. The only way to destroy the current TA is with your whole army focusing on that one unit and lots of pre-planning. In fact, when you see your first vet3 grenadier or vet2 sniper at the start of the game, you have to start laying mines and keep laying them all the way through the game. The TA is this powerful despite the fact that it's very slow in comparison to most tanks as you point out. Being this slow doesn't stop it from being by far and away the best unit in the game, a fact that I hope is not in dispute here.

Assuming the leaked patch notes are correct, the new Tiger Ace will have fewer HPs and do less damage (we'll have to see if it still one-shots AT guns) which constitutes a nerf. However, the whole mechanics of how the unit is priced and used will also change. As I pointed out in my original post, the German player is actually punished for every single moment the Tiger Ace is on the field and is actively incentivised to use it and lose it as quickly as possible because of how it is costed. As soon as it's done its job and died, your resources come back. In other words, the price you pay depends on how quickly you use it and get it killed.

If you think about it from the German player's perspective, the best way to use the new TA is to destroy as much Soviet armour as quickly as possible and then lose the TA to stop the resource drain. After this, you can overpower the Soviet player who has just lost his most valuable units. This creates an amazing situation where the best counter to the Tiger Ace will be to ram it and then keep it alive while preventing the German player from repairing it fully (snipers, mortars etc.). You don't think creating this kind of incentive system is absurd?

Now to address your point about speed directly, a tank that is best used in a Kamikaze-style rush to destroy as much as possible and die quickly doesn't need lots of armour or hps, what it really needs is the ability to get to where it's going quickly and to disable the counters to it where possible. This is where the speed bump and Target Weak Point come in. So my point about Turbo Ace is that not only is the German player incentivised to suicide his TA quickly, he's also given the tools to do so.

As I stated previously, imho, the current TA would be best nerfed by reducing its damage and HPs while keeping the cost mechanism the same (maybe shorten the 0 income period from 10 to 7-8 minutes). It's a simple solution, perhaps so simple that it's almost uncool.

There is no way that any of us can be certain about how things are actually going to play out. I accept that. However, I think the concerns I have posted are valid - I have yet to see anyone explain how my line of reasoning is incorrect (calling me a fanboy, noob etc. isn't the same ).

What I want to make sure is the people who designed this rework have considered this aspect of the new pricing and taken precautions to prevent the scenario I describe from taking place. Their track record in terms of considering the impact of new game-changing mechanics in advance isn't as impeccable as any of us would like...

P.S. Just for balance, I am equally concerned about the Conscript Assault Package going from 2 PPShs to 3 for an extra 20 munitions. Hopefully the fact that it's being moved to 3CP is going to prevent conscripts from being the new shocks

for the most part your reasoning is not incorrect, though you blow the changes out of proportion.

one flaw in your argument is thinking that you will always pay 10 minutes worth of resources for the old ace. the ace was so powerful, it typically ended games within the first few minutes of calling it in. that means you pay almost nothing.

youre also completely understating the importance of the new upfront cost. before, players could save for a p4 and call in a p4 AND ace together. now it will be nearly impossible to call in the ace with a 2nd tank unless you float a ridiculous amount of mp. thats not reasonable in a close game.

also, im not sure how you can say the speed buff is the tool it needs to be effective. have you ever seen a normal tiger run over the soviets and wipe all their armor? if so, id really like to see that game. the tiger is still far too slow to be useful. even if youre aggressive with it, youre vulnerable to mines, ram, AT nade or just getting sniped by su85s which can easily kite you.

just because the cost structure is different doesnt mean the tiger ace is nothing like the tiger. they are the exact same unit, just one starts out with veterancy and has target weak point. the tiger ace will be just as bad as the tiger is right now because it has the exact same weaknesses.

We've probably reached that point in the conversation where we have to agree to disagree

I hope that when we come back to this thread in a couple of weeks' time, you're proven to be right and I'm proven to be completely wrong.

The only thing I care about is having a balanced game, so I am really hopeful this patch is going to be a step towards that.

keep in mind, if the new tiger ace can inflict manpower losses and fuel losses at a rate of greater than 25%/90% per minute, it will continue to "pay for itself"; this is one thing you didn't account for Neo. If it CAN'T bleed the enemy of their units then yes, you are better off killing a few tanks and a bit of infantry, then losing the tank.

Did somebody really say the tiger was useless? Have I slipped into the twilight zone? IMO the tiger call in is probably too good at the price! I think it should have equal cost to the is2


And neo I agree with you. I was having this discussion with a mate today and we came to the same conclusion. The TA owner is encouraged to Rambo it in and inflict as many losses as possible to keep the cost down whereas the soviets plan is probably going to be to disable it and keep it alive somewhere to drain the axis player ... Seems like a really really really dumb thing to implement.

But then again nearly everything else that was leaked is also nonsensical (boardering on idiotic) so maybe its a fake leak to get us all fired up? *crosses fingers*

Tiger vs IS2, actual patch, sorry the video is from a spanish youtuber, so its in spanish

There are 3 Showdowns, the last one is 2v2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CU2ocQZ7Pw

IS-2 is the worst of the Red Army tank in this game.
IS-2 was produced in 3 times more than the Tigers.
Tiger crews were forbidden to engage in a duel with the IS-2, with only numerical superiority and ambushes.

The game Germans can make up to 6 Tigers. Russian 2 IS-2 for the game.
In IS-2 has no chance against Tiger 1on1.
Relic WTF?

IS-2 is the worst of the Red Army tank in this game.
IS-2 was produced in 3 times more than the Tigers.
Tiger crews were forbidden to engage in a duel with the IS-2, with only numerical superiority and ambushes.

The game Germans can make up to 6 Tigers. Russian 2 IS-2 for the game.
In IS-2 has no chance against Tiger 1on1.
Relic WTF?

Its all random. Literally up to the RNG god to decide who comes out on top. If I could be bothered, I'd find a 1v1 IS-2 vs. Tiger duel I had the other day in my stream VODs. It wasn't as controlled though, I was continuously reversing my IS-2, always showing my front, so this affected accuracy on both sides but they were both engaged the whole time (never out of los, no range issue etc.). My IS-2 eventually won. Its literally how lucky you get. Its just as possible the tiger may have got 3 or 4 crits in a row and won.

Its all random. Literally up to the RNG god to decide who comes out on top. If I could be bothered, I'd find a 1v1 IS-2 vs. Tiger duel I had the other day in my stream VODs. It wasn't as controlled though, I was continuously reversing my IS-2, always showing my front, so this affected accuracy on both sides but they were both engaged the whole time (never out of los, no range issue etc.). My IS-2 eventually won. Its literally how lucky you get. Its just as possible the tiger may have got 3 or 4 crits in a row and won.

No, not really.

Every single math and probability gives Tiger an easy win over IS-2.
If IS-2 wins, THAT is pure RNG luck. If Tiger wins, its just confirmation to the rule and tiger wins vast majority of time.

You've had one lucky game, that doesn't make it "all random".

Its all random. Literally up to the RNG god to decide who comes out on top. If I could be bothered, I'd find a 1v1 IS-2 vs. Tiger duel I had the other day in my stream VODs. It wasn't as controlled though, I was continuously reversing my IS-2, always showing my front, so this affected accuracy on both sides but they were both engaged the whole time (never out of los, no range issue etc.). My IS-2 eventually won. Its literally how lucky you get. Its just as possible the tiger may have got 3 or 4 crits in a row and won.

You can outplay someone, you can have sometimes luck, but Tiger is stronger.

No, not really.

Every single math and probability gives Tiger an easy win over IS-2.
If IS-2 wins, THAT is pure RNG luck. If Tiger wins, its just confirmation to the rule and tiger wins vast majority of time.

You've had one lucky game, that doesn't make it "all random".

Thanks for repeating my point, RNG luck = random lol.

That being said, a foolish soviet player is one who doesn't immediately try to disengage from a head on battle with a tiger.

edit: k made a highlight since i have nothing better to do. http://www.twitch.tv/plsnonotthere/c/3717495

On rewatching is-2 actually did get the first shot in and managed to back away, so essentially got a free shot in. still, tiger could have easily got a few crits himself and won. so like i said, random luck

Thanks for repeating my point, RNG luck = random lol.

That being said, a foolish soviet player is one who doesn't immediately try to disengage from a head on battle with a tiger.

edit: k made a highlight since i have nothing better to do. http://www.twitch.tv/plsnonotthere/c/3717495

On rewatching is-2 actually did get the first shot in and managed to back away, so essentially got a free shot in. still, tiger could have easily got a few crits himself and won. so like i said, random luck

Well, you're the one who made it sound like its conscript vs gren type of RNG, while its P4 vs T34 relation.

IS-2 is the worst of the Red Army tank in this game.
IS-2 was produced in 3 times more than the Tigers.
Tiger crews were forbidden to engage in a duel with the IS-2, with only numerical superiority and ambushes.

The game Germans can make up to 6 Tigers. Russian 2 IS-2 for the game.
In IS-2 has no chance against Tiger 1on1.
Relic WTF?

ISU-152 could kill Elefants, but in game it's the reverse. Some things must be done for balance. They decided to make the IS-2 a breakthrough tank rather than a tank destroyer. It has strong frontal armour, it can decimate infantry squads, and it can take on Panthers. Think of the IS-2 as a combination of the Panther and Sturmpanzer IV, the Panther is a tank-killer with strong penetration and high damage, the Sturmpanzer IV is an infantry killer with a wide explosive radius, and the IS-2 does both in one.

Funny thing is the Soviets would kill for a Tiger and the Germans would kill for an IS2...

Funny thing is the Soviets would kill for a Tiger and the Germans would kill for an IS2...

And that's why there should be an option to use AP round for IS-2, HE round for Tiger. Say, 50 munition, one time fire, like Target Weak Point. But nooooo!!!