Why maxim is trash

For some strange and bizarre reason yea:

Support Weapon Kampaneya
The cost of the structure has been reduced to improve its pick rate over the Special Rifle Command as a starting building, and make back-teching for team weapons slightly cheaper.
Fuel cost from 20 to 15

I have no idea why this was done either. At the time of this change Cons+T2 was already becoming increasingly popular.

Should be reverted ASAP.

In other words we are buffing Penal because they are AI only then we decide to keep their AI but also give them AT and AT snares (and we also decide that normal satchel should also cause Engine damage) and now we decided that one Penal sound remain buffed but now they should also be able to back tech to T2...

Yeah this is just another reason to make t2 more expensive. Cause you're right the whole point of giving penals AT was to make the split tech less prohibitive in the first place, which the costs have also done

The whole processes is confusing:
Show Spoiler

It's not too confusing.

We had Penals with flamers which were OP cause they would have a follow up in Guards. But the tier without OP Penals wouldn't really work cause either sniper/M3 are too AI oriented with limited timeframes. IIRC we were also living in mobile defense/222 OH sniper meta.
Therefore the design was to remove the flamer and give the tier some soft AT (i would had preferred an M42 AT gun).
I have advocated that after AT Penals design was established, that they could easily make them pay for both the normal satchel and the AT upgrade by linking it to the HQ upgrades as a way to nerf Penal strats when they were too strong.

The units you mentioned not been used as much are ALL a result of the units been nerfed. The M42 was never used till it got a rework. Guards saw META used then nerfed to see no use and then buffed to a decent level once again. 120mm became a bad unit comparatively before all the other mortar nerfs. Dhsk saw use depending how strong the commander it is in the respective meta. Su76 saw a decay on use after multiple nerfs to stop their spam.


If the point is nerfing slightly the faction, the cost of T2 could just be rollbacked. But that would do nothing to stop Maxim spam (if you are saying it could get some buffs if it appears later in the game). Even if you are delaying time construction by a bit, if the unit is good to be built early on, it would still be spammed with a 2x CE opening. It might had the same issues as Penals opening (giving up map control) but it would probably bring issues on 3v3+.


The only sensible type of buff the unit could receive, it's around T3/T4 timing depending on how good the buff on the unit it could be. Which would be mitigated by other faction having more tools and the map having more random light cover spread out.

If the point is nerfing slightly the faction, the cost of T2 could just be rollbacked. But that would do nothing to stop Maxim spam (if you are saying it could get some buffs if it appears later in the game). Even if you are delaying time construction by a bit, if the unit is good to be built early on, it would still be spammed with a 2x CE opening. It might had the same issues as Penals opening (giving up map control) but it would probably bring issues on 3v3+.

The only sensible type of buff the unit could receive, it's around T3/T4 timing depending on how good the buff on the unit it could be. Which would be mitigated by other faction having more tools and the map having more random light cover spread out.

But what about going further than a rollback? Like making t2 30-40 fuel, buffing maxims, and tossing molotov tech in there with it?

The maxim needs to remain shit because it once got spammed and op is a very weak argument. Its not even one at all imo.

The maxim spam fear argument is bs. 2 of its op defyning feutures got nerfed hard, its mobility and its supression and some more nerf where added so it sucked so hard its a waste of mp at any stage of the game.

At the time cons and penals where a lot worse in preformance as well. This is the third reason people spammed it.
Cons and penals no sucking anymore will not encourage spam in the slightest esp in 1v1.
Now only drop its price to 240 and its still not so cheap that people will spam it. Esp not in 1v1. The maxim needs no buff to its stats. It needs a cost more inline with its preformance. Wich is the worst of the mg,s period.

If you didnt i know many people that used the volks shreks Excuse when pfusies got their AT package...
Double standards is a common thing here and even though i agree with you, that old maxim spam is a bad argument, it will remain valid as long as the so called "single faction heroes" demand buff for free and use the same excuse on the axis side. Its not a fair fight i must say.

I will say that buffing even further the maxim is something unnecesary because its like asking MG42 to be 6 man, it just removes its weaknesses for free and leaves the game design in ashes.

Maxims currently when carrisoned and with proper scouting are of respectable performance. Some Axis units have better RA bonuses or suppression bonuses to avoid being pinned down that fast. Maybe the issue is there.

But what about going further than a rollback? Like making t2 30-40 fuel, buffing maxims, and tossing molotov tech in there with it?

What you suggest is a ninja buff.

I disagree strongly on buffing anymore SU. Its by far the less UP faction.

Could anyone tell me why Maxim's ability needs a reload animation? Why don't maxim get a M1 57mm treatment? It is decent only if you use munies, but reload animation just screws it up.

Could anyone tell me why Maxim's ability needs a reload animation? Why don't maxim get a M1 57mm treatment? It is decent only if you use munies, but reload animation just screws it up.

Agreed about this.

Vet1 should not force a new reload. Even if it means a little exploit to cheese a reload, its not that big of an issue.

But what about going further than a rollback? Like making t2 30-40 fuel, buffing maxims, and tossing molotov tech in there with it?

That ends up been a "buff" to Cons based strats as you save the Molo mp cost when teching up while on the other hand it just delays even more T70 unless you opt for cheaper T1.
While you wouldn't be able to spam Maxims from start, the extra +25f would just put it barely behind say a triple Conscript opening or maybe 2 Cons + 2 CE. Counting the starting 20f, it takes around 2mins or a bit more to get the fuel.

That ends up been a "buff" to Cons based strats as you save the Molo mp cost when teching up while on the other hand it just delays even more T70 unless you opt for cheaper T1.
While you wouldn't be able to spam Maxims from start, the extra +25f would just put it barely behind say a triple Conscript opening or maybe 2 Cons + 2 CE. Counting the starting 20f, it takes around 2mins or a bit more to get the fuel.

Don't have to only increase the cost fuel wise

And the entire point is to make the tier worth it enough to risk the t70 delay/skip. That's half the reason you would increase the cost

If you didnt i know many people that used the volks shreks Excuse when pfusies got their AT package...
Double standards is a common thing here and even though i agree with you, that old maxim spam is a bad argument, it will remain valid as long as the so called "single faction heroes" demand buff for free and use the same excuse on the axis side. Its not a fair fight i must say.

I will say that buffing even further the maxim is something unnecesary because its like asking MG42 to be 6 man, it just removes its weaknesses for free and leaves the game design in ashes.

Maxims currently when carrisoned and with proper scouting are of respectable performance. Some Axis units have better RA bonuses or suppression bonuses to avoid being pinned down that fast. Maybe the issue is there.

Your point about shrecks between volks shrecks and shrecks on fussies is about....? Its an apple and orange comparison. Fussies have 100% more at fire power then the volks had. And i am just glad i was wrong with the blob returning. That has to do with the g43 upgrade being strong as well. That is how it should be done.

I am glad we agree the maxim needs no stat buff. But i will repeat that it needs to cost as it preforms. It has an unfixable bug. Its been nerfed harder then needed. The nerf to supression and mobility next to its sector increase should have been enough. The price and build time nerfs where over the top.

Its just illogical it costs the same as a much better mg 42. 20mp less is no problem. Just like the 10mp and 10 fuel for volks and jackson nerfs where.

T2 has no business being over 15 fuel in cost. Soviets are finally playable without having to rely on soft AT call ins to mask how horrible T1 AT is. The Soviet faction isn’t getting murdered just so the Maxim can be better.

If anyone expects sov T2 to be 40 fuel or more and more then 160mp, better an LV there as well, otherwise units in there would have to be so tremendously buffed to compensate you might just as well slap there cheaper DSHK, cheaper 120mm and whatever can be done to ZiS.

It's not too confusing.
...

Yes it easy just read how the Patch notes:

"Due to the lack of anti-tank in the Special Rifle Command, we are giving Penal Battalions a more focused roll as a dedicated anti-infantry unit."
(in other words buffing their SVTs)

"To address this, we are removing some of the raw power of Penal battalions. At the same time, we are giving Penal Battalions access to some anti-tank utility to give Soviet T1 some tactical versatility, which it previously lacked."
(in other words we are keeping their buffed SVTs just removing flamer/ourah while giving them PTRS/AT satchels)

"The cost of the structure has been reduced to improve its pick rate over the Special Rifle Command as a starting building, and make back-teching for team weapons slightly cheaper."
(now one does even have to get PTRS and can keep the AI since one can back tech)

Point:
Penal battalion remain dedicated anti-infantry with high vetted bonus and got AT capability and a 1 shot snare and the T2 become more accessible so that they can back tech.

One could stick with the original plan and have T1 as dedicated AI and use the doctrinal and stock units available to fill the gap. Unit like the Guards, M-42, SU-76, Dhsk, 120mm would have reason to be used if one decided to T1.

One could stick with more "flexible" T1 and follow the PF designed. The unit start weaker and has to buy upgrade to be either AT or AI.

Or one could keep changing routes get the current mess.

Now follow the satchel:
Originally a Anti garrison weapons.
Then becomes "sticky" and a snare. Then "sticky" part is removed but the engine damage stays.
In mean time the AT satchel gets more AOE and more friendly damage so that the vehicles can take revenge on Penal.

The satchel has no reason to cause engine damage, the At satchel has no reason for a Large AOE and friendly damage and PTRS penal have no reason to have access to normal satchel.

All these are byproducts band aid solutions without reverting changes that should be changed when another path was chosen.

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Returning to my suggestion about maxim spam part of the problem was that one could spam maxim fast enough as the enemy could spam infatry and thus they become unflankable. By reducing the speed that someone can spam maxims one can make the strategy allot less viable.

That can be done by making T2 available later with a number of way like:
Replace C.E. with conscripts as a starting unit, increase fuel cost or reduce starting fuel so that the T2 is further delay or/and increase built time of building and/or increase build time form maxims.

Currently Soviet have more stock option available than other factions like spamming conscripts going t1 and going T2 and trying to make all of them equally attractive at all stages of the game, in all maps and with all commanders is simply a "fools errand".

Can we stick to maxims instead of turning yet another thread about Penals? Please do open up your own penals thread ...

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posts were edited to reflect my remarks. thanks.

T2 has no business being over 15 fuel in cost. Soviets are finally playable without having to rely on soft AT call ins to mask how horrible T1 AT is. The Soviet faction isn’t getting murdered just so the Maxim can be better.

And that's fine, just spitballing ideas. All I wanted in the beginning was a cost increase for mg42 but even that subtle of a change sends some people into the psych ward

Soviets don't need any big changes but it seriously makes no sense that Maxim costs what it does

Why? All the other MGs are better and cost the same or less except .50 cal? No one spams those

Maxim is the only HMG can be spamed effective, because it more or less ignores suppression. So it can perform in situations most MGs suck.

Maxim is the only HMG can be spamed effective, because it more or less ignores suppression. So it can perform in situations most MGs suck.

Could you elaborate on your point? Because if your MG is getting suppressed it becomes a little bit more useful then useless and not like Maxim won't outsuppress even mg34. Maybe I'm missing something about the suppression mechanics, or something like that. I'm not saying that it should be the case, just curious.

Could you elaborate on your point? Because if your MG is getting suppressed it becomes a little bit more useful then useless and not like Maxim won't outsuppress even mg34. Maybe I'm missing something about the suppression mechanics, or something like that. I'm not saying that it should be the case, just curious.

The supression effect of MG crew is different, or better said the effect on the MG is different. For the exact numbers I have to look in tools. But shot: If HMG42 gets light suppression the DPS output drops because of shooting delays way more than of Maxim. Maxim will still shoot and will get some effect on the field.

That factor plus larger crew, build up/down speed and quick rotation is the reason why maxim spam is so effective.

If there wouldn't be bad crew placing and death-loop the unfair mechanics would be not counter-able.

For me something that can be fixed by some handy-caps. Give Maxim its old angle back, but add a defensive mode to increase the angle to HMGs 42 level but lock it down for some sec. So Maxim needs more micro.

Maxims tear apart infantry inside buildings. Funny thing no one mentions that.

Like vickers they are very good when garrisoned.

Maxims is a trash unit in the hands of a trash player...

Oh wait, i know whats comming... "WSTUKA WIPES IT IN NO TIME! / DEATHLOOP BLABLA / SUPPRESSION IS BAD"
Well id say with that logic that shocks are trash units becasause their PPSH cant damage a P4.