Ostheer Puma changes

1- I like Lagos idea.

2- I voted 3

3- As @Doomlord says, this doesn't fix "Panic Puma".

I would rather see 221 back and make the transformation into 222 fuel/mp based instead of munition.
222 Removes the little AI it has now and increases armor/light AT performance. Increase HP to 400.

Goal is a counter to AA HT/T70 mostly cause AEC/Stuart AI is kinda meh

Glad to see you support my suggestion from 2 year ago.
(https://www.coh2.org/topic/68493/the-benefits-of-reintroducing-221-scout-car)

happy to see the mod team finally listened and realized all the nerf (direct or indirect) mobile defense got

finally

Glad to see you support my suggestion from 2 year ago.
(https://www.coh2.org/topic/68493/the-benefits-of-reintroducing-221-scout-car)

You would see that i agreed at the general idea if only certain things were possible to implement but was wary of it due to how the meta was at that point (Call in).

I would say the biggest problem with the Command Tank is not that it's necessarily bad as a combat unit but generally by the time you are able to get it, your opponent will generally have something to deal with it by that time. I would say it should be tied to BP2 like the Stug-E and Puma are currently and maybe have a slight mp decrease or maybe reduce it to 6 CP to make it come a bit faster.

I would say the biggest problem with the Command Tank is not that it's necessarily bad as a combat unit but generally by the time you are able to get it, your opponent will generally have something to deal with it by that time. I would say it should be tied to BP2 like the Stug-E and Puma are currently and maybe have a slight mp decrease or maybe reduce it to 6 CP to make it come a bit faster.

We might be drifting a bit of topic here but timing is crucial especially for a unit that does not scale into late game like C. PzIV.

It holds little Shock value and it cost efficiency it debatable.

The double requirement of both Tech building and CP has killed the unit.

Yeah, command P4 would be fine if it was 0 CP to make it a proper alternative to the Ostwind as first tank.

@Sander: I voted for "other idea".
Some months ago you posted a really cool concept to rework Mobile Defense.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/101020/6-changes-to-improve-wehrmacht-commanders-thematically/post/790046

Please scroll down -Its Sander's second post!

Maybe you can include this proposal in the poll because i would really love to see this at least get a fair shot. Your proposal already< included the idea of 5 CP call-in for the Puma and the Stuka Smoke Bombs.

@Sander: I voted for "other idea".
Some months ago you posted a really cool concept to rework Mobile Defense.

I read the wrong suggestion.
Show Spoiler

Yeah, command P4 would be fine if it was 0 CP to make it a proper alternative to the Ostwind as first tank.

Even then, the Command p4 could use some adjustments to its cannon to make it better against infantry/soft targets. Right now it has a chance to take out a single model with a direct hit, but that's basically it - compared to something like an Ostwind which deals fairly significant AoE damage.

If we want to use a historical information as a basis, the short barrel 75mm on the P4 fired essentially an identical HE shell to the M8A1 'Scott', so perhaps giving the P4 the Scott's AoE and pen values (AoE goes up, Pen goes down) could be an interesting change (keep everything else the same).

Command p4 changes might a bit off-topic, although still related to the MobiDefense doc.

Hi Doomlord, sure we talk about the same proposal. I think you looked at the "German Mechanized" proposal which is also very interisting. Sander's "Mobile Defense" concept is the scond concept in his post. I updated my post so other users know that they have to scroll down.

Hi Doomlord, sure we talk about the same proposal. I think you looked at the "German Mechanized" proposal which is also very interisting. Sander's "Mobile Defense" concept is the scond concept in his post. I updated my post so other users know that they have to scroll down.

Oh wow. Yea, read the completely wrong one, my mistake. I'll hide that...

Oh wow. Yea, read the completely wrong one, my mistake. I'll hide that...

No problem, buddy, what do you think of Sander's concept?

No problem, buddy, what do you think of Sander's concept?

The actual suggestion:

- Puma to T2, no BP3 requirement. Total cost (T1 included) would be 120 fuel, which is now similar to OKW. Should be fine timing wise. Puma now has stock smoke;
- Panzer Tactician replaced with Stuka Smoke Drop to reduce synergy of light vehicles with the Puma;
- Osttruppen Reserves replaced with the Sd.Kfz.251 Mobile Observation Post package as it fits well with the mobile defense theme, as it'd allow you to spot enemy build-ups or assaults early;
- Command Panzer IV replaced with a version of Hold The Line! to further prevent the old Puma into CP4 synergy (beyond the tech requirements for the CP4 already in place) and to give the commander a more unique ability. I considered adding the Panzer 4 ausf.J (in line with the western reinforcements theme) but P4J + Puma would probably instantly make it a top meta pick.

I don't think this would fit too well, honestly; out side of specifically the puma change.

#1 keep counterattack tactics, it's a good inexpensive ability (no change in the suggestion).

#2 The Puma changes are good, as it gives OST a good LV counter.

#3 is a decent change, but I'd rather see Panzer-Tac fixed rather than simply replaced (i.e. making it a directional targeted ability, similar to USF sherman smoke).

#4 The HT Mobile Obs post just doesn't offer all that much utility compared to the alternative Flamer upgrade. You're essentially locking up a 251 as well as a commander ability slot in exchange for the opportunity to spend muni on an LOS ability that's essentially a copy of PF's flare. Except nearly 2x more expensive, and also not attached to one of the best infantry doc-locked units. The cloaking is also somewhat pointless, as the detection radius is huge (20m, iirc), so when it is used, it's placed behind shot blockers.

#5 I think that the final ability, "Hold the Line", would be quite underused. At 250 muni (if it's a copy+paste from UKF), the often muni-starved OST player simply isn't going to be able to afford it all that often, and even then, the UKF 'original version' of this ability isn't used that much, either.


If the intention is to keep the doc (mostly) limited to low command point abilities, I'd replace the #4 HT Mobile Obs with either an MHT or Riegel AT mines, and #5 "Hold the Line" with either an offensive off-map ability (Stuka Dive/Frag, etc.) or a much less expensive 'buff' ability (Tactical movement, Valiant Assault, FTFL etc.)

Rework the command tank. Give commissar-style functionality. No passive aura, just multiple command style abilities

Maybe buff main gun as well. It should maybe have longer range to give it something over the Ostwind

I voted cp5 for Puma, replace ptac with stuka smoke drop

I think it need some sort of offmap ability. Id be fine if panzer tac was switched to arty call in like light barrage or at strafe.

I think it need some sort of offmap ability. Id be fine if panzer tac was switched to arty call in like light barrage or at strafe.

The command puma would most likely have an off-map call, similar to the okw panzer commander upgrade.

Rework the command tank. Give commissar-style functionality. No passive aura, just multiple command style abilities

I can't stress how much of a massive nerf it would be.

Maybe buff main gun as well. It should maybe have longer range to give it something over the Ostwind

While the unit itself is primarily AI, it doesn't compete with ostwind at all.

And, I'm leaning towards limiting earlier puma to 1 just like valentine.

puma - 5cp call-in unit

Panzer tactiction -> stuka smoke drop

Ostruppen reserves - > 250 HT

Command Pz4 -> Sector artillery

Counter attack tactics : now vehicles can take point temporarily and infantries capture the neutral territory quickly


The 250HT Infantry patrols around the map to defend against enemy attacks, quickly regain stolen territory using counterattack tactics, and the Puma protects the 250HT against Allied light vehicles.

Put Stuka smoke drop instead of panzer tactics to prevent Puma from becoming too survivable, and OST players can use air reconnaissance to figure out where their enemies are attacking and send 250HT and Puma

Counterattack tactics increase the value of use by allowing the vehicle unit to gain the territory in addition to the existing effect.

puma - 5cp call-in unit

Panzer tactiction -> stuka smoke drop

Ostruppen reserves - > 250 HT

Command Pz4 -> Sector artillery

Counter attack tactics : now vehicles can take point temporarily and infantries capture the neutral territory quickly

At this point, you want to just pick a completely different doctrine.

lets not forget how bad ostruppen call in is. I think they deserve guaranteed lmg(at least for one unit) or reduced cp requirement