jackson armor nerf

Jump back to quoted post20 Jan 2020, 22:44 PMDoomlord52

Yea, my mistake. Had the HVAP numbers instead of normal for some reason.


How so, especially compared to the M36?
It's slower, doesn't have a turret, doesn't have HVAP, and doesn't have a crew (and all the bonuses/gimmicks associated with that). A 60-range stug would come as either a more expensive unit, or as an expensive (i.e. not just ammo) upgrade to the normal stug.



1. Flanking, smoke, ambushes... just like Axis has to do now against SU85s and M36s when properly supported.

2. Axis early game is no stronger than Allied early game. Look at the current state of Sov early game and their scaling, as well as the performance of USF rifles, then also look at the power of Allied LVs compared to axis. Each side/faction has its strengths and weaknesses at most points in the game.

3. This is generally focused on the M36 - it's just that the armor nerf wouldn't change anything, as its been pointed out.



Why does axis need the extra micro tax on top of having to use a much squishier unit that also lacks a crew (and related gimmicks)?



Pretty much; against a decent team, OST is in a really tricky position. It's pretty common for late-game USF teams (2v2+) to have 4+ M36s, which makes Panthers basically useless. The only solution to that kind of match-up is a Pak40, but its incredibly vulnerable to any kind of indirect fire or just infantry.

A buffed Puma is an interesting idea, but it doesn't help OST, which is arguably in a much worse situation, since OKW also has the non-doc JP4.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jan 2020, 22:45 PMHannibal

Not sure what you want to say with that. But keep in mind that we are still talking about reliable penetration. P4 has a 84-96% pen chance against the Jackson, so bouncing a shot is more bad luck once in a while. That still a 50% chance to pen 4/4 shots at max range and a 65% chance to pen 4/4 at mid range. We are talking about the same pen chances which people use to argue that the Panther were shite and needs an armor buff because a dedicated tank destroyer will pen with 85-90% chance (at vet 0).

Just to put this into perspective. Shadow posted the values, but apparently no one thought much about what they actually mean.


Of course they are valid. But as I said, Puma needs 13 secs if it's lucky. That's the only issue I see. That's why my point so far is that the best approach is to probably get ~10 armor off the Jackson. That gives P4 more than enough chance to pen next to every shot while Puma will probably not cause much issues.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jan 2020, 22:47 PMWiderstreit

But that thread is a bad jocke, pointing on something with interest, while knowing the problem is something else.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jan 2020, 22:42 PMSkysTheLimit

but changing it requires a lot of brainstorming

Jump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 00:28 AMdistrofio

Actually it does not, but everytime a thread discusses about ""Nerfin"" the M36 a whole army of fanboys defend it because it carries their games

Jump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 02:03 AMmrgame2

What should reliably counter jackson is panther.
A simple step up about economics and tiering and teching

Making puma more reliable by weakening m36 armor, feels like concerned trolling and pity bump. The proposed solution don't hit real issue and limited in application

What's next? Reduce is2 armor bounce against handheld AT

Jump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 02:39 AMMazianni

If Panther reliably counters Jackson, what counters Panther? Why would anyone even build the Jackson if it does not effectively fight heavy armor?

@OP armor nerf would be an interesting idea, sure.

Jump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 02:43 AMmrgame2

You can make panther effectively fight jackson. And still retain Jackson effectiveness against panther and heavies. It is not 1 or 0.

Cost of panther to perf is simply poor

Op m36 armor nerf is pointless since puma is okw nondoc.

Jump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 02:29 AMSkysTheLimit

Can you show me an example of one of these Jackson threads where a horde of US fanboys ruined it? And if their fanboys who cares what they say? You're not giving the mod team enough credit if you think their decisions are effected by the nonsense coming from Codguy's keyboard...

Jump back to quoted post20 Jan 2020, 14:39 PMmons7erz

Fantastic Suggestion! I'd love to get my hands on a Non-vetted Snare, Cheap field upgrade, and a rifle grenade!.

I Would be all for it!

Edit: Forgot to mention the cheaper reinforcement cost. God I would love that

Jump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 02:03 AMmrgame2

What should reliably counter jackson is panther

Jump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 03:49 AMdistrofio

First of all, dont start a flame war if you are not going to handle it afterwards. CODGUYS is the worst example your could pick. Your post are beyond flame to other users aswell, sit back and relax or just leave the forums for better.

Jump back to quoted post20 Jan 2020, 20:08 PMFire and Terror

whats gonna counter 60 range stugs supported by command p4? whats the egde allies gonna have? when stug is faster and has faster rate of fire then su85?

axis already has a very strong early game in team games becouse of mg42... or just okw things...

please keep the topic on the Jackson and espacially the proposed change in Jackson puma interaction in order to make p4 pen Jackson 100%

Jump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 03:49 AMdistrofio

This kind of "retoric" discussions of panthers vs jacksons vs heavies vs TDs are just the way this so called fanboys disrupts threads. Again you are welcome to start your own reading and realize it for yourself.

Jump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 03:49 AMdistrofio

You are free to read all the previous threads about M36, im not here to babysit anyone.

I woulnt summon the dev team into this discussion unless you have solid proof that "their desitions are affected", they respond to the game design, and then the community feedback, not the other way around.

Jump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 09:55 AMVipper

Puma does not sound like a good option vs M36 because of:
Low far penetration
Low far accuracy
Low damage
Low speed modifier in rough terrain

Jump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 08:51 AMSander93

It already does. A well timed Panther dive can easily kill a Jackson on most occasions.