Stationary PANTHER

Sweet td stats such as 920 hp 260 armour actual ai dps medium tank speed and rotation and heavy crush? All things allied td,s dont have.

All td,s have over panther is price and range. The only thing that is needed adding deflection damahe to dedicated td,s (wich the panther is not) and lower their pen.

I said Td stats.....
Powerful guns that go all the way against call in heavies. What is 260 armor these days?
And yes price/popcap is a good advantage to have when their performance exceed their costs clearly

What you listed are just convenience throw out, except maybe the 960hp advantage..

We all agree panther AI is near worthless. Sure less shit than 60td none existence AI, but shit is still shit, no ways about it. And heavy infantry crush? How often you see that since it got nerf long time back?

I believe cheaper allies vehicles have infantry crush too. How is this a big deal?

I mean if panther AI and heavy crush are more effective, then i concede. But they are simply irrelevant in most if not all games. To be cited as an advantage.

55 range is still an advantage.
Right now 60 range, besides just sitting alone safely for incoming tanks or you can move in, snipe and move out. 60Td are fast tanks, even the FF is still faster than a ATg.

It creates a solution that is lazy. The 960Hp advantage is no advantage when you get near 100% shot from safety range.

Up for more visibility from pro players comments!

I said Td stats.....
Powerful guns that go all the way against call in heavies. What is 260 armor these days?
And yes price/popcap is a good advantage to have when their performance exceed their costs clearly

What you listed are just convenience throw out, except maybe the 960hp advantage..

We all agree panther AI is near worthless. Sure less shit than 60td none existence AI, but shit is still shit, no ways about it. And heavy infantry crush? How often you see that since it got nerf long time back?

I believe cheaper allies vehicles have infantry crush too. How is this a big deal?

I mean if panther AI and heavy crush are more effective, then i concede. But they are simply irrelevant in most if not all games. To be cited as an advantage.

55 range is still an advantage.
Right now 60 range, besides just sitting alone safely for incoming tanks or you can move in, snipe and move out. 60Td are fast tanks, even the FF is still faster than a ATg.

It creates a solution that is lazy. The 960Hp advantage is no advantage when you get near 100% shot from safety range.

Up for more visibility from pro players comments!

The panther has td accuracy. Slightly better vet 0 pen. It can still go all the way up to callin heavies no problem. The is2 is the only exception.
The heavy crush as i mean it can crush pieces of trees/forest other tanks except heavies cant crush. Meaning it can flank dive and esvape much easier.

Its not a convienince everything i listed impacts its preformance. Esp vs meds. And allows it to go toe to toe to heavies in a lot of cases. They meds cant pen the 260 armour so easely. The panther also outranges them. The panther is not meant to counter td,s its meant to counter tanks. Prem meds and heavies in particular.

The lack of "pro's" responding should tell you enough about reducing the range.

Only certain axis up crowd agrees the panther is subpar.

I said Td stats.....
Powerful guns that go all the way against call in heavies. What is 260 armor these days?
And yes price/popcap is a good advantage to have when their performance exceed their costs clearly

260 armor is enough to basically shrug off most of the weapons in the game about half the time or more, but sure let's just pretend it's nothing, and further pretend the boost it gets vet 2 is 'useless' as well because armor that doesn't 100% immunize the vehicle from penetrating fire is absolutely worthless in Axis UP land.

What you listed are just convenience throw out, except maybe the 960hp advantage..

We all agree panther AI is near worthless. Sure less shit than 60td none existence AI, but shit is still shit, no ways about it. And heavy infantry crush? How often you see that since it got nerf long time back?

I believe cheaper allies vehicles have infantry crush too. How is this a big deal?

I mean if panther AI and heavy crush are more effective, then i concede. But they are simply irrelevant in most if not all games. To be cited as an advantage.

Nobody agrees with you that panther AI is near worthless; it's an undeniable utility that the Panther has and TDs don't, and combined with its extremely high durability can most certainly fight off infantry units when needed to.

Heavy crush concerns crushing obstacles, not infantry. Which, coincidentally, the Panther can also do quite well. The fact you just ignore all this as 'irrelevant' doesn't help you any.

55 range is still an advantage.
Right now 60 range, besides just sitting alone safely for incoming tanks or you can move in, snipe and move out. 60Td are fast tanks, even the FF is still faster than a ATg.

It creates a solution that is lazy. The 960Hp advantage is no advantage when you get near 100% shot from safety range.

Up for more visibility from pro players comments!

What's really lazy is wanting your Panther to be a hard counter to TDs lmao.

How about you use some combined arms and screen your tanks with infantry or ATGs? All weapons that are 100% capable of penetrating allied TDs.

Save the panther for hard countering medium and premium medium tanks; you know, the exact thing the unit has as its description in its file. This is an anti-tank tank, not a TD and certainly not an anti-TD tank.

If you want to nerf TD range, the Panther (and probably every heavy tank as well) absolutely needs to lose durability, and that's a fact. This is because, although you have refused to understand this for whatever reason, TDs are the sole method of reliably fighting off high-armor axis tanks (panther included), and achieve this largely through their penetration and their range advantage. Nerfing range means these units are not as easily able to skirt the range of far more durable but equally if not more deadly heavies, and therefore brings them closer to a slugging match that TDs absolutely can not win. The tiger, for example, achieves up to 50 range with vet; those extra 5 range units are simply not enough breathing room, particularly considering the earlier accuracy drop.

You seem entirely incapable of understanding this dichotomy or else you simply want your heavy tanks and the panther to be these AT-immune vehicles that you apparently believe would only be properly balanced if the allied player musters his entire force to counter that one vehicle. I will admit I am convinced the latter is your true motivation.

But hey, in the slim event that it isn't, like I said; slash heavy tank HP values down to medium territory and you can see about killing TD range advantage, and maybe even penetration. Then maybe these 'flanking attacks' you lads like to bring up so much won't amount to flatly suicidal dives so often.

55 is still more than 50/45...
The +5 range advantage is on top of other sweet td stats.
I just cant see losing 5 range makes them halpless..
Its like some saying u dont dive with just panther, you need to cover it with ATg & infantry. Why should allies td sit comfortably at 60 alone?

Bump for more pro players comment. We need to test it for sure

5 range difference doesn't cut it when we are talking about vehicles.

If you want to cut down TD range distance, then you should scale everything down as well. All tanks should lose 5 range as well as infantry snares, AT and AI weapons.

Therefore the idea is back. If the issue is that it's hard to engage on heavy tanks once they gain extended range, i would start by just removing it from vet2 at all or making it work only as spearhead.

Mr game2: 260 armor on panther is meaninglessness but at the same time 240 armor on churchill is very "durable".

Anyway, as ost, a very effective counter for TD already exist in form of pzgren. Since all TD have close to 0 AI and pzgren have passive sprint near vehicle (i'm not sure it is vet or not) it cant be more convenience to perform an A moving blob of panther+pzgr that required high lv of combine play from the other side to answer.

Using Shrek blobs + panther is simply too costly to deal with cheaper 60td. Panther should be counters to all tanks why leave out td?

As imo 5 range less is still 5 range more. Precisely because they are vehicles, the ranges are not as game losing as say pio squad walking to provide sight. I was reading through historical patch notes, those changes made can now be time to reconsider the 60td specs.

As for other comments about church hill armor, yes its all true. Wehr has to spend considerably more to tackle it. In 2v2, if allies team pushed out heavy armour, i am cry. Allies blobs that can walk up and shred mg42.

As for panther having samey starting td accuracy, but 60td raced away from it at vet up. Things like AI dps and 10% armor vet are not enough but just a bullet point. I think panther also has large gun scatter, that's why you see it shooting behind tanks often.

I know top players seldom post here with low level whiners like me. I hope to see some balance advice too. I mean, we already seen their actions in wc19 regarding missing axis T4/panther. Maybe its good to have more their thoughts

Using Shrek blobs + panther is simply too costly to deal with cheaper 60td. Panther should be counters to all tanks why leave out td?

As imo 5 range less is still 5 range more. Precisely because they are vehicles, the ranges are not as game losing as say pio squad walking to provide sight. I was reading through historical patch notes, those changes made can now be time to reconsider the 60td specs.

As for other comments about church hill armor, yes its all true. Wehr has to spend considerably more to tackle it. In 2v2, if allies team pushed out heavy armour, i am cry. Allies blobs that can walk up and shred mg42.

As for panther having samey starting td accuracy, but 60td raced away from it at vet up. Things like AI dps and 10% armor vet are not enough but just a bullet point. I think panther also has large gun scatter, that's why you see it shooting behind tanks often.

I know top players seldom post here with low level whiners like me. I hope to see some balance advice too. I mean, we already seen their actions in wc19 regarding missing axis T4/panther. Maybe its good to have more their thoughts

So loosing pio,s is game loosing and loosing td,s isent? Wow

Panthers should have a counter. It happens to be that td,s are its counter. No units should have no counters.

Oh yes i agree with TD counter panther. Hence their impressive td stats for their price shall stay. Just need a change in max range. It will still be advantageous but less comfortable. Imo this better than trying things like lowering pen or have deflection damages. Like how much to lower pen? How much deflection damage should be?50%? Will we end up as penning will still be same frequency but non pen deals deflection damage, meaning 60td may kill axis tanks even faster?

Pio was just example that traversing 5 extra range is much easier with vehicles and 10 extra range is lazily super deadly

Panther should be counters to all tanks why leave out td?

At it finest.

Panther should be counters to all tanks why leave out td?

Because then you'd have uncounterable unit on field?

Also, panther DOES counter ALL TDs in its range, because its shoots faster/just as fast while having 50% more health.

Because then you'd have uncounterable unit on field?

Also, panther DOES counter ALL TDs in its range, because its shoots faster/just as fast while having 50% more health.

You are misunderstanding. They mean counter with no input or effort. Basicly when the panther hits the field armour play should end entirely. The only way to counter it should be like the old Soviet vs Ost lineup where you need 16 medium tanks to swarm it and even then it should be a toss up

The only way to counter it should be like the old Soviet vs Ost lineup where you need 16 medium tanks to swarm it and even then it should be a toss up

I like this part, because it isn't even an exaggeration.
I'm quite positive OP does miss 1200+ health 60 range panthers of beta.

Oh yes i agree with TD counter panther. Hence their impressive td stats for their price shall stay. Just need a change in max range. It will still be advantageous but less comfortable. Imo this better than trying things like lowering pen or have deflection damages. Like how much to lower pen? How much deflection damage should be?50%? Will we end up as penning will still be same frequency but non pen deals deflection damage, meaning 60td may kill axis tanks even faster?

Pio was just example that traversing 5 extra range is much easier with vehicles and 10 extra range is lazily super deadly

20/25% reduction in pen and 50% deflection damage. For vet 0 su85 it would go from 240 230 220 pen to about 196 184 176. 160 damage divided by 2 is 80 damage on deflection. If i did my math right it would taken 11 deflection shot to kill a panther.

Because then you'd have uncounterable unit on field?

Also, panther DOES counter ALL TDs in its range, because its shoots faster/just as fast while having 50% more health.

The entire point of going T4 and paying 185 fuel for a Panther is to get a unit that beats every other medium 1v1, no questions asked. The problem is that there are 4 combined issues, lower range, nothing great moving accuracy, mediocre accuracy and painfully slow rate of fire on a 75mm gun. The design of the tank is fine, but how are you supposed to use it? Sniper from range? Can’t, no spotting ability like su85, low range/rof/accuracy. Brawler? Low rof and accuracy missing shots from point blank. Ambusher? Can’t finalize kills due to low rof, gets no camouflage and can’t stun. Diver? Accuracy sucks. Diver is probably its best role honestly, that and brawling with heavies, which is not what a medium TD should be about,

I think the best fix for the Panther is premium accuracy, make it a very accurate tank able land shots with high accuracy, while also giving it maybe 10% moving accuracy with vet. That would make it much easier to use in space as a fast mobile zone denial tool with great offensive potential.

The entire point of going T4 and paying 185 fuel for a Panther is to get a unit that beats every other medium 1v1, no questions asked. The problem is that there are 4 combined issues, lower range, nothing great moving accuracy, mediocre accuracy and painfully slow rate of fire on a 75mm gun. The design of the tank is fine, but how are you supposed to use it? Sniper from range? Can’t, no spotting ability like su85, low range/rof/accuracy. Brawler? Low rof and accuracy missing shots from point blank. Ambusher? Can’t finalize kills due to low rof, gets no camouflage and can’t stun. Diver? Accuracy sucks. Diver is probably its best role honestly, that and brawling with heavies, which is not what a medium TD should be about,

I think the best fix for the Panther is premium accuracy, make it a very accurate tank able land shots with high accuracy, while also giving it maybe 10% moving accuracy with vet. That would make it much easier to use in space as a fast mobile zone denial tool with great offensive potential.

Panther has very high ROF for a tank or even TD. On the allied side it's only slower than the Jackson (with regular ammo).

The issue is the Panther already beats every other medium 1v1, no questions asked. The question is whether or not it should be handily defeated dedicated TDs and the answer to that should be a hard no.

I would rather increase the Panther's penetration to make it a more reliable counter for allied heavy tanks. If I were to touch accuracy at all on the base level I would increase the long range accuracy solely. In terms of veterancy, I don't know what would be right. I really don't think the Panther needs any help; it's already very good. If we were to buff any of the AT units in the game it should be the SU-76M that people still pretend is good.

Panther has very high ROF for a tank or even TD. On the allied side it's only slower than the Jackson (with regular ammo).
...

That is inaccurate according to cruzz
ROF
Panther 6.65
SU-85 5.65
M36 6.55
FF 8.25

Vet 3 ()
Panther 5.03
Su-85 4.57
M36 5.054
FF 6.25

That is inaccurate according to cruzz
ROF
Panther 6.65
SU-85 5.65
M36 6.55
FF 8.25

Vet 3 ()
Panther 5.03
Su-85 4.57
M36 5.054
FF 6.25

Check reload stats yourself. The Panther has superior reload time to every allied TD but the Jackson at 5.2-5.6 (IIRC. Cant view stats atm on phone.). If aim times are different across these vehicles that's news to me.

20/25% reduction in pen and 50% deflection damage. For vet 0 su85 it would go from 240 230 220 pen to about 196 184 176. 160 damage divided by 2 is 80 damage on deflection. If i did my math right it would taken 11 deflection shot to kill a panther.

Too complicated and what is the final objective?
How about the other 2 60Td?
How should we do the vet bonus?
Im afraid we may end up buffing their rof and become another usf Atg if it needs 11 shots at current rof...and still crazy effective against slow Axis armor

55Td just makes most sense, easiest to implement and wont confuse allies players much.
55Td on wheels is deadlier than the number seems.
60Td simply zone out the tanks, literally zone out.
Allies can just position the 60Td behind and then just micro their infantry blobs, Is2, Churchill etc. Pretty much zoned out lazily from their 60Td. You are supposed to do that with Pak ATg, but to also do that with Td on wheels...
And when you add their faster vet bonus, the accuracy, abilities, no chance. Besides Axis dont even have as good AT airstrikes.

Check reload stats yourself. The Panther has superior reload time to every allied TD but the Jackson at 5.2-5.6 (IIRC. Cant view stats atm on phone.). If aim times are different across these vehicles that's news to me.

Check the stat yourself from cruzz, I provided Rate of fire which is a more complete stat than simply reload.

The entire point of going T4 and paying 185 fuel for a Panther is to get a unit that beats every other medium 1v1, no questions asked. The problem is that there are 4 combined issues, lower range, nothing great moving accuracy, mediocre accuracy and painfully slow rate of fire on a 75mm gun. The design of the tank is fine, but how are you supposed to use it? Sniper from range? Can’t, no spotting ability like su85, low range/rof/accuracy. Brawler? Low rof and accuracy missing shots from point blank. Ambusher? Can’t finalize kills due to low rof, gets no camouflage and can’t stun. Diver? Accuracy sucks. Diver is probably its best role honestly, that and brawling with heavies, which is not what a medium TD should be about,

I think the best fix for the Panther is premium accuracy, make it a very accurate tank able land shots with high accuracy, while also giving it maybe 10% moving accuracy with vet. That would make it much easier to use in space as a fast mobile zone denial tool with great offensive potential.

The entire point of building TDs is to D Ts. TDs are not medium tanks. They are their own thing designed SPECIFICALLY to counter units like the panther. Anything less will be food for the panther hands down and even the non Jackson TDs will be eaten in a 1v1 as well by exploiting their weaknesses (thus excluding the Jackson who has none)

The panthers role is to force your enemy to get TDs by invalidating medium armour with its superior armour health and pen

I agree it needs some refinement but it's not nearly as useless or helpless as you are making out.