Jagdpanzer IV Refit

How so? It gets +160hp with veterancy which is a huge difference, a permanently useful vet 1 ability (Firefly has nothing, SU-85 has a meh ability, Jackson's forces a reload and costs munitions), and ultimately higher, it gets +38% accuracy while the others get +30%, and all other buffs (reload, mobility) are roughly the same. On top of that, most of its basic stats (target size, reload, and accuracy) are better than the other TDs in the first place (sole exception is that Firefly has equal vet 0 accuracy and slightly better with the tank commander).

The vet 5 ambush bonuses are still decent. Even if the extra damage doesn't do anything, it still gets better accuracy and penetration for every first shot.

The only thing it lacks is a penetration bonus, but again, that is on purpose.


Beyond vet 5 being a bit lackluster, there is absolutely nothing about its veterancy to complain about. I can only agree with:


I almost always use Jagdpanzer IVs, they are fantastic to play with, and a real pain in the ass to deal with when playing against them. It is a really good unit.

vet 5 bonus are not decent, when other tanks get them permanent and not only for the first shoot out of stealth, the increase damage is almost useless

and u are exactly proving my point, as u said ur self
"it gets +38% accuracy while the others get +30%, and all other buffs (reload, mobility) are roughly the same."

it has no business having vet 5 at double the exp requirements of other TD

vet 5 bonus are not decent, when other tanks get them permanent and not only for the first shoot out of stealth, the increase damage is almost useless

and u are exactly proving my point, as u said ur self
"it gets +38% accuracy while the others get +30%, and all other buffs (reload, mobility) are roughly the same."

it has no business having vet 5 at double the exp requirements of other TD

You really are dense, aren't you?

That vet 5 IS ON TOP of all the previous bonuses which are in line with other TDs vet stat increases.
Its called a BONUS, because its a BONUS on top of base that is comparable to other TDs.
That means JP4 gets MORE at vet5 then others at vet3.

Its not so hard to understand, I have no idea why your head is completely deflecting that information instead of taking it in.

Yeah because allied TDs can camo and actually have armor. JPIV is cheaper and has plenty of advantages that make it good in its own right. It just gets overshadowed by braindead panther spam.

It also gets to take another hit with vet (+160hp), if that's not an awesome vet bonus I don't know what is.

Yeah because allied TDs can camo and actually have armor. JPIV is cheaper and has plenty of advantages that make it good in its own right. It just gets overshadowed by braindead panther spam.

It also gets to take another hit with vet (+160hp), if that's not an awesome vet bonus I don't know what is.

No JP4 is not cheaper it actually more expensive than its counter part the SU-85.
It is only cheaper to FF and M36 and slightly.
Cost:
JP4 400/135
SU-85 350/130 +50/5

FF 440/135 40/0
M36 400/145 0/-10

The advantage it has over SU-85 up to vet 3 is basically armor, it's performance vs medium is equal to marginal better while its performance vs heavy armored targets is inferior.

You pay more for something that does less.

As for Panther spam that is only available in 4vs4 or if one has been simply been already lost the game.

Against everything with less than 200-170 armor, the Jagdpanzer IV is way more cost effective than the Panther due to higher DPM while costing a lot less. Against anything above, the Panther does not have a clear advantage because of its low DPM.

The only thing that makes the Panther arguably more cost effective is that it can also deal decent damage to infantry. Against vehicles however, both units are roughly on par when facing heavy tanks (in terms of costs vs performance), while the Jagdpanzer IV takes the cake against all mediums/premiums/TDs.

If your sole criteria for cost efficiency is DPS in slugging out, the Pak is far more cost efficient. Actually OKW have to 400/135 15 pop for something pak can do for a fraction of the cost.

By the same criteria SU-85 is more cost efficient than M36, which I doubt you will find allot of people to agree.

As a counter to mediums, best thing one can do if his opponent has build a JP4 to counter his medium, is keep it medium in base. The okw player has already payed more for unit that can not contribute anything while paying more upkeep for that unit.

For countering heavier targets all one has to do is build an ATG to keep the JP away.

It will win versus all Allied TDs, and demolishes them with veterancy, two of which are more expensive, so I'd definitely call that cost effective. When fighting Allied mediums, any Allied mediums, the Jagdpanzer IV is the more cost effective choice because the Panther is simply way more expensive without being much better, while the Panzer IV is a liability against any premium tank because of its low penetration.

Another thing to consider is that it has longer range and lower target size compared to the Panther, which should reduce the amount of damage it takes in a fight quite significantly, resulting in much lower repair times.

Versus allied TDs it can keep them away as long as there no atg around but it getting a kill is another story.

Once more the unit is simply not a cost efficient counter to anything and that is why it use primarily in 3vs3 and above.
To sum up:
Vs medium cost more than any of them hardly better than Su-85 or even Stug
Vs heavy armored target inferior to SU-85 not better than Stug
Vs TDs cost about the same with performance similar to an ATG

Imo JP4 is not actually a bad unit it has simply been power creeped by the extremely cost efficient allied TDs that among other things have seen increases in their penetration while the JP4 has not. (and has received several nerfs in vet bonuses instead)

If your sole criteria for cost efficiency is DPS in slugging out, the Pak is far more cost efficient. Actually OKW have to 400/135 15 pop for something pak can do for a fraction of the cost.

It most certainly is, but JP4 isn't exactly going to die if royal engineers will stand next to it for 5 seconds.

By the same criteria SU-85 is more cost efficient than M36, which I doubt you will find allot of people to agree.

There is this lil thing called a turret. Ease of use is also important factor and Panther isn't exactly on the same power level as JP4, contrary to jackson vs SU-85.
Plus, you might not be aware of it, but you can't build jacksons instead of SU-85, because "allies" is 3 different factions, not 1 mega faction, again not the case with JP4 and panther, comparing cost efficiency of AT cross faction is plain stupid.

As a counter to mediums, best thing one can do if his opponent has build a JP4 to counter his medium, is keep it medium in base. The okw player has already payed more for unit that can not contribute anything while paying more upkeep for that unit.

You've just solved all the problems against jackson, ff and SU-85 here!
Just keep your meds at base!
Balance ultimately achieved by snek at 20.10.2019, mark this moment in history books.

Hell, we can now rebuff Maxims to how they were, grens cost less, so if you see maxim, just leave your grens at base, now opponent has nothing to counter on field and he wasted these resources!
(gotta love your logic at times)

For countering heavier targets all one has to do is build an ATG to keep the JP away.

Is Panther immune to ARGs?
Are allied TDs immune to them?
Why JP4 can be countered by ATGs and kept behind just fine, but when its SU-85 or jackson its "problematic"? Hypocrisy much?

Versus allied TDs it can keep them away as long as there no atg around but it getting a kill is another story.

Heard of puppchens yet?

Once more the unit is simply not a cost efficient counter to anything and that is why it use primarily in 3vs3 and above.

That's only your opinion, not a proven fact, doesn't matter if you will word it as a fact, its still your own personal opinion only and doesn't change the fact that JP4 is more cost efficient against meds.

To sum up:

Vs medium cost more than any of them hardly better than Su-85 or even Stug

You can't get SU-85 or StuG as OKW. Comparing to anything else then panther is pointless.

Vs heavy armored target inferior to SU-85 not better than Stug

You can't get SU-85 or StuG as OKW. Comparing to anything else then panther is pointless.

Vs TDs cost about the same with performance similar to an ATG

And since ATGs have superior DPS to TDs.... JP4 is superior to TDs too, which is exactly what Sander said, glad you came to that conclusion on your own after all.

Imo JP4 is not actually a bad unit it has simply been power creeped by the extremely cost efficient allied TDs that among other things have seen increases in their penetration while the JP4 has not. (and has received several nerfs in vet bonuses instead)

It has been power creeped by Panther.
Panthers existence holds it back, absolutely nothing else.
Panther is your choice for heavy armor like IS-2, while JP4 is there to counter everything that's called medium and premium medium.

...
You can't get SU-85 or StuG as OKW. Comparing to anything else then panther is pointless.
..

I will not even both respond to the rest of the rant.

That is rather funny coming from you with countless post comparing Conscripts and VG instead of Penal but then again we already have established that you change you mind on whim.

But the fact that the majority of players even at high rank prefer the Panther suggest that the Panther is more cost efficient.

Diversity is decided by how the player's options compare to each other, balance is decided by what a player is facing or how cost efficient the unit is compared to other units of its class.

...
And since ATGs have superior DPS to TDs.... JP4 is superior to TDs too, which is exactly what Sander said.
..

In what way is JP4 superior to the cheaper SU-85 in role of countering tanks up to vet 3?

It has been power creeped by Panther.

Glad to come to my conclusion and it obviously it has been power creeped by SU-85 and M36 that have been buff thru the roof and more more cost efficient than the Panther since they can deal with any vehicles (JT Ele not included) at cheaper price than the Panther.