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Thread: What was old CoH2 infantry combat like?14 Oct 2021, 19:24 PM Back in the day tank damage was based on the veterancy. You can play one of the ToW missions, I belive its some sort of the winter airfield mission or something which for still has mentioned system. For instance, Vet 0 tanks used to deal joke of the damage, while vet 3 units used to be super tanky and 2\3 shot vet 0 vehicles. Point being when coh2 was released it was out of hand competly. If you had vet 3 PIV\T34 you could have engage and win fights against like 3 vet 0 mediums. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Hannibal's personal gameplay design11 Oct 2021, 16:41 PM Main problem with armor system and AT weaponary in coh2 is that its pretty much dumbed down vCoH system. Few core aspects were removed like deflection damage and AT gun vulnerability. For instance I belive in CoH2 PaK38\M1 did 150 damage per penetration and, say PIV, had 600 HP. So its pretty much same 4 shots like in CoH2. But in vCoH you coudnt 1v1 tanks with single AT gun like in CoH2, since possability of loosing mentioned AT gun completly were 100% persent real. Meaning that you had to support your AT guns via combined arms. While in CoH2 you still have to spend hell of a lot time circling around AT gun, then you need to spend time killing gun itself. Deflection damage is the biggest oversight in CoH2 imo. Since in CoH2 we have only penetrating\non-penetrating shots, whole AT gun perfomance is locked behind its raw penetration values. In vCoH even non-penetrating shots dealt 50% of the core damage via deflection, meaning that AT you can cheap away some HP which will help other AT sources with less damage. All of this led to the fact that AT guns\TDs are pretty much balanced around facing heavy tanks, because aside from penetrating shots there is no way to deal damage to them, which on its own leads to the fact everything but heavy tanks most likely will be just nuked by AT gun walls. Not to mention that HP values were different even for light and medium tanks in vCoH and AT guns with veterancy\Abilities actually had increased damage. In CoH2 everythin is just flat, without anything even remotely deep behind it. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad is OP8 Oct 2021, 19:16 PM Jump back to quoted post8 Oct 2021, 17:55 PMKatukov but both factions that have long range indirects have non-doc forward retreat points and both indirects are cheaper than the mortar as long as the price goes down thats an alright change, otherwise hell nah What does it have to do with retreat points if both IGs and Pack Howi cant retreat? IGs is cheaper by 70 MP (which is reflected in its perfomance) and Pack Howi cost litteraly the same while still being questinably inferior in combat perfomance and objectively inferior in survivability. USF\OKW have access to forward reinforcement faster, but soviets also have merge for early game and later on M5 for forward reinforcement. In teamgames, USF\UKF teammate can always provide you with forward reinforcement just aswell. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad is OP6 Oct 2021, 17:40 PM Jump back to quoted post6 Oct 2021, 16:19 PMKlement Pikhtura I use it a lot lately in 2v2 and it is really hard to lose, unless you brainAFK'ed or got rekt by a Stuka zu fus Thats pretty much my point. I wasnt proposing any major changes to its combat perfomance and be just as strong in right hands combat wise, but it should be just easier to pushing at least if enemy gets cocky or plays wrong with it. Because right now, there is really not much you can do about it, but to either outplay your opponent\use Stuka or rely on enemy making a somesort of a mistake. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad is OP6 Oct 2021, 11:56 AM Jump back to quoted post5 Oct 2021, 20:54 PMKlement Pikhtura the best way to counter it is with Stuka. The soft counter is just skip on HMGs and mortars, or get 1 to cover your flaks. Get an aggressive commander, preferably with smoke bombs and just roll over the SOV guy. As for the unit, imo the popcap should be bigger, to punish spamming. I can't say it is OP, but it is definitely strong. Well yes and no. I'd say trying to counter 120mm with stuka specifically is a bad idea, since it has long CD and even if you de-crew 120mm soviet will just crew it back. Stuka helps soften soviets defence which might allow you to push and at least force 120mm away. And 120mm is not OP in a sence of perfomance. Its imo just overtuned for the timing and stats it has. If it was a little bit weaker surviability wise or came like not at 2CP but at 3CP, it might have been completly fine. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad is OP5 Oct 2021, 19:36 PM Jump back to quoted post5 Oct 2021, 18:25 PMrumartinez89 Just theory crafting, as Ost have you tried making the mortar halftrack. They hit the field at the same time and the halftrack is more mobile so you should be able to keep pressure up. As OKW maybe the fire rounds I know it is doctrinal but it should constantly force the mortar to move which makes it fairly useless. MortarHT works to some extend, its not a hard counter or meanigfull counter, but works for sure better then regular GwR. It can sustain more punishment from from 120mm themselfs, but its somewhat map dependant, since it still has to get relatively close to the front line to shoot at 120mm and if the map is oppened it might get shot by AT gun\AT inf. My main complain - I dont like commanders MH is present in. While I have them in loadout for the accasions when I know I wont be able to survive without it, but still not my cup of tea. As for OKW, fire rounds also work decently well (at least better then regular barrage) but they will bleed your muni really bad in a long run, considering that you will be firing them constantly. And if there is USF\UKF player supporting soviets with forward reinforcement platform or M5 later into the game, they wont do much. Also the thing is, while both MH\Fire rounds are some what all right, but they wont give you that much of advantage. I mean sure, it will have something to fight 120mm back and soviet player might not be able to completly brain AFK with them. But all this for a cost of picking specific commander early, in order to just give soviet player a nose bleed at best is a so-so chose, if you ask me. Especially considering that all commanders with 120mm mortar give you something good for early, mid and late game and 120mm itself is not a selling point of the commanders. Thats my imo. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad is OP5 Oct 2021, 16:24 PM Jump back to quoted post5 Oct 2021, 14:06 PMdonofsandiego ... I am not saying it should be just as vulnerable to axis indirects as other mortars, what I'm saying that you practically cant counter it with your indirects even if you play right\enemy plays wrong. Even ostheer counter-barrage dont work. There is a difference in being "hard to counter" and "almost impossible to counter". This problem only leads to the fact that soviet players can get 120mm mortar closer to the frontline, effectively neutralising the fact that its auto-fire range was nerfed. Or if there are mass enemy indirects\inf to stay at safe range and use barrage. And speaking of situations you've discribed, yes its true that its less effective against blobs, but the problem is that in teamgames soviets already abusing maxims themselfs on a line maps or use penal blobs themselfs into 120mm mortars. With maxims its self-explanatory, with Penals even if Ostheer\OKW goes full gren\volks build, you just need to stay in cover with your penals and zone volks\grens away from your 120mm, because they cant push penals into close\mid range and 120mm mortar in long fire-fights will eventually hit them. In vacuum yes, 120mm is vulnerable to flanks and mass inf, but on practice its really hard to get to it. By the time soviets can call-in 120mm mortars both Ost\OKW dont have properly established army to orginize such pushes, which can "just" overhelm. They might be able to out-play soviet player, but its a question of a player skill which is irrelevant on the topic. And even if you somehow managed to flank and push, soviet player still have 4 models to spare + retreat button on top of it. Situation is becoming even more ludacris when you add supporting teammates. I mean sure Panzerwerfers can counter it, Stuka can counter it somewhat, but what difference it makes if you are unchallanged for at least 1\3 of the game (without stuka around for even more). Which on its own just allows you to snowball like crazy. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad is OP5 Oct 2021, 11:09 AM Jump back to quoted post5 Oct 2021, 02:09 AMKasarov I can get behind nerfing the reinforce cost or reducing the number of crewmen, but in no way is the actual combat performance OP for its high price. Its combat perfomance is fine, what makes unit not fine: 1) Its still realistically almost immune to all inderect units axis have in the time window it become awaible. Even after formation nerf. 2) Its still awaible in a time frame where getting it is not a problem MP wise and you can realistically just wait for 2CP. I mean hell, USF pack howi cost the same, have bigger reinforcement cost, dies with 3 models left and cant retreat. While having somewhat simular range and for USF its a bit harder to rush it to begin with. I still dont undertand why 120mm should have its survivability considering its already out-ranges and out-dps other inderect units awaible at time and realistically axis can reach it only if you either placed your 120mm to close or axis moved his indirects to close. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: What was old CoH2 infantry combat like?3 Oct 2021, 09:29 AM Jump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 18:36 PMKlement Pikhtura Yeah I brainfarted, I for sure thought that inf armor at least in early strages of coh2 worked differently and actually was reducing damage rather then ignoring it completly. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad is OP2 Oct 2021, 06:33 AM Jump back to quoted post1 Oct 2021, 23:40 PMgeneral_gawain It depends which matchup we are talking about. USF and UKF really don't shine in the indirect fire department, unless you take the same 1-2 commanders always. Soviets on the other side have a very useful nondoctrinal mortar, strong nondoctrinal rocket artillery and a bunch of commanders with come with one of two doctrinal howitzers or the doctrinal 120mm mortar. USF/UKF nondoctrinal -> definitely axis nondoctrinal indirect fire superiority with commander choices this may look different Well, since it was context of mortars. Soviet PM-41 is pretty much on pair with ost mortar. It all comes to the fact who can land few hits first, both have chanses to do it with a first shot or do nothing. Both need to be very close to the target for maximal effect. Soviets can use flares to boost accuracy, Ost have fast firing mortar. USF. Fast firing but low range mortar. It hits quite good, but the main disadvantage is range, you really need to get it close to the target. On open maps, yes its weaker then ost mortar, on maps with sight blockers, where you can get it closer, it performs some what on pair. UKF. Commander mortar is a copy of USF one I belive. Without commander, yes, UKF struggle a bit vs mortars early, but you need to survive like first 3-4 mins to get your mortar pit, which shut downs Ost mortar play. And OKW IGs sucks ass, when it comes to countering other inderects if its not mortar pit. If we look at indirects over-all, then the only advantage axis have over allies - the fact that UKF\USF dont have stock rocket arty. Poit was that 120mm mortar being at 2CP is a hard counter to ost heavy support weapons oppenings, which is true. But along side being hard counter to one particular cancerous strategy, it also just as effective against pretty much any other strategy. In: COH2 Balance