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I don't like the no flares options. I like that flares are there for the USF arty. However, I would like to see the cost reduced, the shells dropped faster, and in a tighter grouping. This would allow the USF to force weapon teams to move and give them a chance to attack.
UKF arty is right on the border, I think less scatter will be more than enough for this to be good. Denying an area for as long as it does would be fine for 45 munitions. Use if before retreat to stop capping, and it would be worth its cost.
Stuka is not avoidable for static units (artillery) as such it is currently boring and should be reworked slightly. |
I didn't lose this game, but the Ability killed 2 of my trucks. http://www.coh2.org/replay/41503/2v2-air-supremacy.
All I saw was the ability being used when you had decided to create a little sim city. Placing 3 trucks and 3 ISG's in a tight area. The placement of the Schwer was particularly weird because it should have gone up north to defend the fuel, but for some reason you decided to build it very close to an already set up truck. He also triggered AS during a battle which was intelligent so that you would have a higher micro requirement. You did forget to mention that you had already won the game by the time he got to it, one player dropped, and he never had the resources for upgrades all game as a result of it storing up for it so his troops could not hope to beat your men as the game dragged on. On top of that it came so late, that as I pointed out before, you had already built units from your tech structures and their loss was annoying but not exactly game breaking. Good ability yes, game deciding just for being called no.
Another discussion, but did not see you complaining about how OP the ISG was in the game which basically allowed your team to sit comfortably in mid and never move. The allies had no real counters to them because they don't unlock any real counters. |
the "i win" button was hyperbole. replay, as requested:
if pak43 pays for itself by shooting once or twice, then all emplacements pay for themselves simply by getting built. what i'm saying is that a croc shouldn't just be able to drive up to a pak43, decrew it, and drive out. no replay here, but i had that happen to me once, where a croc drives up to pak43, decrews it with one flame shot, drives out... all the while getting shot at by the pak43, a pak 40 and a tiger. admittedly, that was back when it still had 1600hp. still, i'm not even complaining too hard about the croc, because if it gets nerfed a lot, it'll be way too weak for the time it comes and its cost. but air supremacy is way too strong, no argueing about that.
btw, infrared doesnt give LoS, it only lets you see where the units are. it's very strong, but on the other hand has no weapon and gets oneshot if anything gets close.
Keep in mind that you posted a replay from before patch so I had a little trouble watching it, but I will say that the AS was good but not why you lost.
You blobbed around your med trucks to reinforce, and failed to put pressure around the map to take points. Frequently you lost squads to throw away missions even after you had secured large sectors of the map. At the start of the game both Brit players were extremely low on troops and yet you did not follow up your wins, but instead bunkered down on your med. You did not push mid VP until later allowing the Brit player to stay in the game longer.
Really what I saw was Brit player realizing you had become extremely entrenched and using that to beat you, while you did not realize how much of an advantage you had at the beginning of the game and failing to exploit that. Next time don't bunker down, keep attacking.
Also just quick thing about the Pak 43, if you had a Pak 43 get decrewed by Croc who cares? Just recrew it for 60-90 MP. You also don't need LoS for it, just attack ground where you hear or know there are tanks and viola tanks blow up. A Pak 43 with even a modicum of support will defeat a Croc easily. They don't prevent tanks from being used the lower the window on how long a tank can operate near you. Also they are going to be the focus of every one of your opponents attacks. |
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Please do upload the replay as suggested, but from your description this is a long game. If he gets a KV-8 (thats 8 cps) You should have AT. If you don't see him build a single tank you should definitely already be looking at hard AT. Use Puma from Mech or better yet, use the PJ IV from Med. Do not hold out for Panther. You can even get a PIV instead. Any tank will do because the KV-8 has limited options to deal with real armor. Obviously infantry of any type will not do.
An IS2 backed up by Zis's is good use of combined arms. Your KT however outranges the IS2 and you can always get TD's. Get the JPIV, again or plan to use the Panther aggressively to flank. Use Volks spread out to constantly put pressure on the AT guns, IS2's will rarely wipe them in one shot. You can also get a Stuka if you already have some AT and make those AT guns very comfortable, while landing shells on the IS2 and vetting quickly. In these cases the KT is not the right unit.
I think you will get better feedback once your game is up as well. |
alright... lets give... lets say okw an "i win" ability for say 1000 mun.
just because all other commanders abilities suck, doesnt mean okws have to suck, right?
you can save arty pieces by denying sight. what about pak43s getting oneshot by offmap arty? or crocs just driving up to them and decrewing them?
sry, but a broken ability stays broken, no matter how you want to justify it. air supremacy is one of those abilities.
AS is hardly and I win button. OKW don't have to suck you can suggest changes to them in another thread. Make one I would be happy to comment.
You cannot deny sight with to German players. They have a straight up wall hack unit, unshootable sight generators (artillery flares), numerous overflight options (which usually cannot be shot down before they provide sight, and air attacks which also provide bonus vision in a narrower cone, besides infiltration units which can pop out of buildings in numerous docs, and spotting scopes. Short and sweet when I play German if I want sight I will get sight, I just need to decide how.
Please feel free to upload a video of AS being OP and deciding the outcome of a game where the player who used it should have lost, but didn't because of it.
Pak 43 is just a weird comment. Unit is amazing in certain niches, and its life span is irrelevant frequently because in 1-2 shots it should pay for itself. Also the bombing run you are talking about (Soviet one I assume) can be shot down, by more plentiful German AA. The Croc if it decides to go toe to toe with a Pak 43 should be absolutely devastated by the Pak 43. Oh and at vet 1 you can just stun the croc and then finish it off. Are you saying because the Pak 43 can be killed by off maps we shouldn't have off maps? Or are you saying off maps should not one shot buildings, because the Germans are far more guilty of one shotting buildings with offmaps than Allies are. |
Yes but generally these/this ability is used in combined with a general push. If all the OKW trucks are almost completely dead than killing them isn't hard. Also OKW relies pretty heavily on Sturms in combat so you need to retreat all your CQC troops to your HQ's to repair them.
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If your HQ's are taking damage before the bombing run they are near the front line and that is a risk you run. If you don't want to repair them don't build them that close. If they survive it and its a general push, don't you want the player to use his abilities in a combined arms fashion to win? Isn't that the point?
How much munitions are floated depends on the will of the player. I never float as Soviets because I spam demo's and mines like a drunk. Also typically you won't spend THAT much munitions as Brits because 2 IS with full upgrades can hold the line pretty easily (speaking 2v2 here). On top of that Brits have free late game upgrades in the form of Heavy Engineers.
Larger point, Soviets have more munitions play style aside.
You could reduce the damage of the bombs to 160, or increase the time between bombers by a lot and it would still be very, very good.
And leave the cost the same? I don't think so. The hugely high cost offsets any reduction in the ability. If you want to reduce the ability in any way the munitions cost should come down so it does not completely wipe out the munitions of the Brit player. This ability is designed to be used once in smaller games (maybe more in others) and so has to be devastating effect.
Because that's a doctrinal counter to counter another doctrinal unit. If you don't pick Stuka Dive Bomb when your enemy has howitzers thats on you, but you can't really afford to just not play OKW as it was intended to play with forward truck placement because the enemy MAYBE will later on pick a commander.
Think about it like this, Stuka dive bomb is countering a 600 MP artillery piece. Air Supremacy is literally countering OKW's entire design.
I suggested it be given (although I said it should be a ME262 bombing run because late war and all that, also would thematically explain why it couldn't be shot down) to OKW because OKW has no 100% reliable Howi counter.
Air Supremacy is countering, in the late game, aggressive FHQ. Seen plenty of players build some or none of their FHQ's outside of their base sector. It is countering one design, if it gets picked, if the player stores up enough munitions, if they get lucky that the bombs wipe the structure.
Stuka dive bomb is a straight up gaurantee to destroy artillery, it is a binomial counter. Do I have Stuka if yes arty is useless if no arty is useful. Whereas AS is more like, does he have AS maybe I should be careful with FHQ's I want in the late game, or maybe I think I can beat him before that. If not I do exactly what I wanted before.
Also there really isn't any counter-play against Air Supremacy, OKW can't afford to just ignore their core faction design. The whole "put HQ's in base" thing is silly because you need to have your med truck forward as your basic infantry relies on attrition to beat the enemy not outright beat them 1 on 1. And the "spread you HQ's" doesn't work on every map (for example Trois Point) because the area of the bombers attack is so massive.
No its not, that's opinion. OKW work wonders with base trucks in their sectors. They can help teammates and are always protected from artillery, they also prevent your opponent from knowing what tech structure you are developing. The lock down trucks are a hold over from an earlier OKW design, actually not core to the faction anymore. OKW infantry straight up beat other infantry in one on one fights (usually). They win by intelligent placement. It is laziness that gets us to the attrition argument. If you think Obers win by attrition, or Falls, or Jaegers, or Sturms you are outright using them incorrectly. Volks, one unit, yes, until it reaches higher vet levels and is outright better.
You can definitely always space out your HQ's. No map requires them to all be build so close they can get killed. If you lack map control to hold the territory to protect them build them in base sectors or better control the map. |
Okay not even going to get into an argument here with the people defending this ability (because just lol) and I'm going to highlight why it's broken and should not be the way it is.
While you did belittle everyone defending this ability you also made an argument for why it should be changed by arguing that the ability is not in line with other off maps.
Call a spade a spade please.
So OKW off map is not particularly good, in general I agree. Since you mentioned it the 200 munitions off map IL2 can almost kill a base structure, it just needs one penal satchel to complete it. Arguably that is 245 munitions. Also unlike the Soviets the Brits don't float munitions as easily. They have to pay to upgrade all of their units, and so are munitions limited. They also consume munitions at a phenomenal rate if they get just one firefly, ever.
Bad off maps for one faction do not force off maps of another faction to be bad. Also what is your thoughts on Stuka Dive Bomb (more easily available) completely wiping an arty piece, with 0 counter play? I believe you in fact suggested at one point OKW be given this ability. How does this differ from wiping a 200 MP 40/80 F structure (which does have some counterplay).
The lolz to He111's doing the bombing, ahh Relic. Also the line of bombers is funny, stupid, but funny. |
Thread: Penals22 Sep 2015, 14:56 PM
Alex making sense!?!?! One thing, it wasn't that they didn't ever explode, it was that they had a 50% less chance of it happening than other flame units, cause special sauce.
Indeed, the rifles need more accuracy.
Fighting harder for loss of men would definitely fit with the unit name. Not sure the commissar upgrade is necessary, might be interesting. |
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If this ability is reduced in cost it will be seen even more often because it will be cheaper. Even a lesser version of this bombing run would be brutal if it could be dropped every 3 minutes off cool down.
Reminder here, the bombing run does not always destroy OKW trucks. It comes very late (OKW should already have units from those trucks, if you lost those units you are being punished now because you did not preserve your units). It is destroying relatively cheap structures, 200MP at most 80Fuel. 3 minute delay to rebuild tech is very short in late game. You are looking at one push and you can have your structure back up, if you want it. OKW is being designed for strong early game and weaker late game, so we should expect to see their raw power falling off as game progresses. Counterplay is to expect to lose your structures after the 25 minute mark if they are far forward, or build in base from beginning. Brits have limited options to dig out entrenched opponents so this prevents OKW fortifications doc from being picked every game. Ability should never kill mobile units, you should always dodge it.
I find this all very rich when the Wehr has Stuka dive bomb in multilple docs, and in a doc that can feed it munitions no less, and wipe out 600 MP artillery units with literally 0 counterplay. I cannot build them in my base sector (though it doesn't matter), I cannot survive ever from a hit, I cannot shoot down the plane.
If OKW is vulnerable to one off map late game Brit ability that can destroy some of their limited investment (literally the cost of 1 volks squad) you are in good standing. He could have used so many more effective uses of that munitions to wipe squads long before that.
TL DR: Ability is strong, but fine. When you play Brits expect to need to replace your tier structures in the late game if you choose to be aggressive early game with them. |
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The attack, as I remember does not fully destroy and OKW truck when deployed. Also it comes extremely late, and means that the Brits have a way to deal with hard points. This has two effects, it forces the OKW player to carefully consider turtling and it causes the OKW to consider having to pay to rebuild lost base structures. In keeping with Relic's plan to have OKW have a weaker late game I see this ability as well balanced.
Solution: If you build aggressive early you need to win, you have yourself a huge early game advantage. But be warned, if you fail to win by the late game you will be punished. After that point decide if you want to build in your base. Tech structures are still very cheap for OKW.
If you are struggling against it you need to force more bleed on the Brit player. By using this ability he will be very limited on munitions for almost any other option. Also you need to expect to lose base structures outside of your base, no other faction has this ability and so if you decide to exercise it your units are vulnerable.
I see no problems here. |
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