Profile of elchino7

We can say the same thing about the current balance "team". The very same guy who created the penal problem in the first place.

The difference being, they can now nerf any unit they cast the blame on.

Guess what happens when you can only alter a certain aspect of a faction and your scope is limited to nerfing the cheese which makes that faction relevant. The difference is that i don't see Penal/T1 opening as problematic as the previous styles of SU play (maxim spam or even guard spam for 2v2+) which was confined to playing one or 2 commanders (right now Lend lease is strong, but viability of other commanders is there and not "auto lose").

Take into account that OP is mostly complaining with a 3v3/4v4 gameplay in mind without a clue at what rank he is playing. I've never seen more than 4 Penals (3 been standard) and all the talk about map capping, garrison and cover control lose all meaning on those modes (one of the weakness of opening with T1) as shown in the replays i put up.

Once cons are buffed, i don't mind seeing the AT package locked behind the AT nade upgrade on base nor their on the move performance nerf (as in the mod).

PD: not sure what you are trying to prove, when the 2 CE + 3 Penals + Sniper/Clowncar been a standard. Also top25 vs top300 is not equal.

HVAP does benefit from vet as the bonuses applies to hardpoint_01 which is swapped over to the HVAP weapon when the ability is triggered.

So is this a case by case scenario (each unit having hardpoint assigned) or there's a difference between timed based abilities vs barrage type units?

I ask cause i was told that LM vet 2 was not working (fortunately).
I "assumed" that since indirect fire units have their vet applied independently for each barrage type (since they use different profiles for each) something simil would happen to other units as well.

No need to be so specific but something like: "Here. Take a look at how the games are been played on the mod" is fine.

I forgot, welcome to the forums. I suggest that before jumping right into balance threads to first open up threads in here https://www.coh2.org/forum/2/state-office.
Also filling playercard/replays goes a long way than rather just describing things with words.

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Incendiary grenades have their uses, but they seem slightly overpriced and have virtually no use against infantry who are not garrisoned.

Ok, it's rare that multiple squads are wiped, but they do have the potential to do so, and you will often see multiple squads crippled by a lucky satchel. Satchels, as someone else here has pointed out, are also very versatile, being useful against vehicles and structures also. I'm just saying they should be increased, to, say, 50-60 munitions?

I can't see this tactic working against any competent player.

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Grenades with fuse are deadly but can be dodge. Flame DoT weapons deny cover and in the case of the OKW flame nade, it doesn't have a fuse so it lands and impacts instantly on close range. If cover play is not key at your games (since we don't have a single replay or playercard we can't assume rank nor gamemode) that's a different point.

Satchel are versatile but they require a HEAVY MISSPLAY (AKA lack of attention) of a player cause they takes ages to blow up. They are indeed versatile, but compared to any other snare in the game, they lack both range and they can be cancelled by running out of it's cast range. Basically, if you don't stay at melee range pushing them, you won't be satcheled.

Luchs is not free...
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You are missing some keys points. The game is not 1on1 scenarios and the mp difference and map presence is something which drags since min0 of the game.
OKW starts with more mp overall.

Game example:
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With a classic 2 CE start into T1, by the moment you get to start building T1:
SU has 190mp and 2xCE (170mp) at 340mp. T1 is 160mp. Total = 690mp
OKW at the same time has 220mp, SP 300mp and a Volks 250mp = 770mp

80mp lead just from the get-go and map/engagement control. The 1st/2nd CE is wasting time building T1. CE can't deal with either Volks or SP.
At the 1:00 mark, OKW has 2 Volks on the field (one of them been just built) + a SP. SU has 2 CE and is at a quarter in the production time for the first Penal. This is why Hector is insistent on map presence.
What you want to do as OKW: get on favorable cover. Get garrisons at annoying positions. Engage on the CE. If you face the first Penal, do so with a 2v2 or 2v1 approach (whatever mix of your comp against his Penal and CE. Focus fire)
Build freaking mines/wire against T1 openings.

3min mark:
OKW has 4 Volks, SP and building truck.
SU has 2 CE, 1 Penal and 1 M3A3. A 2nd Penal at 80% production.
Again, map control is crucial cause YOU ARE GONNA LOSE PART OF IT when the M3 flamer clowncar arrives. This is till you recover it during the early-mid game with tech.

Devm gives a class on how to play that match up perfectly.


Games as OH
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Another games as OKW
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Look at how the game is played at the first 10 mins.

IB4 allies OP blablabla, Penals can be adjusted (like in the EFA revamp, which reduces effectiveness on the move) but they are FAR from been a problem. Lend lease and crap alternatives are a problem, Penals aren't.

So you admit your argument was silly? That is what your post implies, proved you wrong.

When people refuse to show their playercard or replays of their game, that's a huge sign that the problems they might be facing are not due to balance but rather their own skill set.
In a similar way, solution to problems might not be feasible depending on the skillbracket.

Ex: kitting penals PTRS with light vehicle/tanks. This is something i would generally say, but if i'm advising someone at the 1000/2000 or even lower ranks, i would suggest other approaches.
Same if i tell anyone to use a sniper. At those levels i'll rather tell them to get another unit cause microing a sniper takes the few APM they have in a single unit they might not take full profit out of it.


OP: Penals opening without conscript or double CE means jackshit map/garrison/cover control at the beginning of the game.
Garrison dance makes it impossible for them early on to get you out. Early M3 (as 3rd unit built) means even less map control which you can abuse. Single CE flamer also means they won't be able to defuse your mines. Don't sit on munitions early once you know it's a T1 opening (which you realise pretty much at the start by their map presence).
If it's a M3 clowncar DO NOT OVERCOMMIT low model/health isolated squads deep into enemy territory, specially around the 3:30/4:30 mins of the game (timing on which flamer can pop out).
Every single Penal squad that you can force your opponent to make them upgrade PTRS, means a dead squad for the later stages of the game. Penal PTRS don't do shit against infantry and they are a slot weapon. This means every time you kill a model, their AI goes down as the PTRS must be given to another model.

Playercard/Replay and game mode will go a long way in getting more valuable feedback, if that's is your objective.

I would disagree with the timing. My build is pio > t1 > penal > m3a1. M3 can reach the front at almost the same time as the penal.

A mine is very much an option. I would counter that delaying shrek by any amount of time, even to put down medlacks, can make a t70 even more dangerous. A ratken you say? Most unreliable POS in the game imo.

There are always counter plays but I would say Russians have a very strong open vs OKW.

But then, this is not about Penal blob spam which is what OP is complaining about. T1 combined arms approach (M3 + Penals + Sniper) is strong specially if combined with Lend Lease but it also drops down on effectiveness as the game drags. It's basically a minigame of how much damage it can do before those units drop down in value.

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I thinks that's a good example of things done right and wrong on both sides.