It is a little too cost efficient. Slight cost increase, and slight nerf to flames vs retreating. Especially since it requires no teching at all exept waiting for 4cps.
Brummbar is laugable in comparison. it costs 190 fuel(165 if you skip t3 building) just to tech to a brummbar, and another 170 fuel to build one. It also has worse stats overall.
Granted, a p4 will kill it eventually, but usually not before you lost a lot of map control and probably a couple of squads. The KV's real power is when used in combination with su85's.
Kv8 costs 135 fuel, you cannot possibly have Kv8 and Su85 vs player of any decent ability (at the time when Kv8 can freely roam the map, and that is before stug or piv) |
@BabaRoga: Are you saying the Russians don't have other units as well? By the way, AT Guns are no deterrant unless vetted since they get insta-BBQ'd as well and remember you can no longer suicide faust it with a grenadier from the front.
Even if the KV-8 dies as a result of charging into your base, if it is able to kill, hypothetically, one shrek squad and two LMG squads on its rampage towards your base, that's 840 manpower + 240 munitions down the drain right there. Generally speaking, it'll probably do even more damage than that if it's on a suicide run. I'd trade 360 manpower and 135 fuel for that anyday, because it means now the Germans have no infantry and I can capture a lot of the map. Unsupported German tanks are mincemeat for AT guns + conscript nades.
Frankly, the KV-8 is actually more OP on its own than the Su-85 because it takes away the ability to capture points, which is essential for victory.
By the way, you people have been saying that the KV-8 is the sole reason for those commanders. That implies Shock Troops must be useless. Why? Because the KV-8's overwhelming effectiveness renders them useless. Why would you ever pay 480 manpower for Shock Troops when the KV-8 fulfills all of your anti-infantry needs? So yes, I agree, the KV-8 is the "only" good thing about those commanders; doesn't mean it should be that way.
What I am trying to say is this: Yes KV8 is extremely annoying and yes its OP'd when you look at it the way you described. But once you kill it, and you will with stug or piv, it really doesn't matter that you lost all your Pgrens worth 840 Mp and 240 ammo because having spent 135 Fuel to pull out kv8, Soviet player is some 200 fuel away from fielding Su85. Just keep rolling Piv's shocks are useless against armor, thats what is everyone saying. Soviet player is left defenseless against heavier armor unless he manages to defeat German player completely with Kv8...
As I said high risk / high gain unit.
No one is claiming that KV8 isnt OP'd, but we are saying as the part of commander tree it comes with, it is not OP'd because commander would be useless otherwise..... |
@BabaRoga: The KV8 can just chase your pgrens to your base when they retreat and roast them as they run. If the player didn't try to do that then he doesn't know how to exploit KV8.
I understand that, but do you have any other units but Pgreens? 1 at gun and couple of upgraded scouts will deter KV8 from doing so, especially if it took some damage already.
I am not saying these things aren't happening to you guys, just saying so far in my encounters with KV8, I always managed to dish out some damage to Kv8 with double Pg's and rarely losing entire squad let alone 2 vet 3 pgrens.
I had Kv8 come after me to base couple of times where it died, because my pgrens didn't just instantly disappear from flames. You can still hide behind buildings and hold it of until stug comes out.
Furthermore its not like Kv8 comes out way before German player can pull out stug to counter it...
Maybe I just played real noobs, I dont know. |
Godwin's.
The top 200 stats are pretty hard to divine anything from tbh. A lot of the accounts are people who don't play regularly right now and a lot of better players seemed to prefer Ostheer because it was generally regarded as less strong until last patch (whereas now a lot of streamers are switching to play more Soviets). If Relic had a more general set of data, I'd be interested.
Similarly, the Steam stats are not really indicative of in-game balance. In general a lot of the changes to Soviets came about partly as a result of previous tournaments where the Soviets completely dominated. Personally I think things like the scout car squad deaths on destruction change and the SU-85 cone sight change have actually made the Soviet faction more fun and engaging to play.
There's not really any truth that the German play doesn't involve a lot of micro. Armoured cars are very micro intensive, dodging molotovs is normally more micro intensive than dodging riflenades (not right now because broken sound). I agree that Germans are a easier/less stressful to play right now, if you're not above going the MG suppression bulletin and LMGs everywhere but I don't think the balance is actually massively off in general, just that the MG-42 needs a look-in, and a few things on each side are OP and UP (so, maxims a bit UP, KV-8 way OP etc. etc., LMG-gren OP, German Sniper very much UP).
A lot of your points are basically examples of extremely bad Soviet play (so, losing a clown car to 2 grens fausting is just bad play, similarly the Molotov charge on a really large building like the church just never works).
Agree, a lot is just bad play |
loooooool
in the next patch the mg42 will be officially renamed superman
While I agree that mg42 is Op'd atm (especially in the building) I don't see much wrong with this video.
The way I see it, Soviet player did good micro play to flank Mg, but German player did well 2 to micro his mg, evade molotov and pin other squads. Then Soviet player for some reason attempted to keep fighting mg'42 and supporting eng while pinned down.
Good play by Soviet, Good play by German player. Soviet player was just fractionally late on couple of occassions.
This video doesn't say much about anything |
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I think 1v1 and 2v2 games are pretty well balanced atm. 3v3 and 4v4 are definitely not, combined with such high intensity micro and babysitting units needed to play as Soviet, being main reason why more players are searching as German.
Personally, the only reason i play Soviets is because its easier to get game. But I do feel tired and feel that I am getting tension headache after 1 or 2 games. |
It can be good without instantly erasing units. Someone gets vetted Grenadiers and PGrens but just because someone picked an otherwise weak doctrine it is acceptable for them instantly die? No. It could be buffed in other areas like acceleration and main gun but there is no justification for units consistently insta killing full squads unless its just a really lucky hit from artillery or grenades.
How often do you end up losing match to Kv8 player? 20%, 50%, 80%, 100% of the time?
Yes it is annoying and OP as single unit, but as part of the specific commander I dare to say its still weak commander, that loses more then 50% of time (on par with arty spamming, extremely annoying but entirely winnable vs) |
Um, I'm not sure being in a crap tree is necessarily a good reason for it to be OP, because then fixing anything else in the tree (like, say, making Shocks cost effective) will completely mess up the balance.
My issue is still, it's just that it's the sort of unit that can just end the game if it waltzes into an enemy base, as well as being very hard to actually kill if the opponent uses it more responsibly. For 360MP and 135 Fuel, that's way too good. I don't mind the infantry melting but the infantry melting, the armour and the cost together is way too good.
I think the best point of comparison is the Brummbar, which has worse armour and less HP, is less effective against infantry in a real scenario most of the time, requires a Tier 4 tech building (hence a bigger initial fuel and MP investment) and costs 35 fuel and 160 mp more.
I am talking about ATM, in 'what if' scenario I would agree with you.
Tho I agree that it is extremely frustrating seeing Kv8 hit the field, and even in the hands of noobish player it is extremely deadly for infantry, I can't recall an instance where it wiped out my entire squads unless i stood my ground and tried to fire of Pfaust. In most scenarios I would have 2x PG squads and possibly at gun and scout. Now I mostly stand my ground to KV8 and send PG squads to opposite flanks, The squad that KV8 tries to burn I retreat (usually losing 1-2, very rarely entire squad) second squad always fires of shrecks and retreats undamaged. At the same time i harass it with upgraded scouts and fire of at round if I have one. Before I pull out stug or Piv and kill it or nullify its danger. After that its walk in the park defeating Soviet player.
Do you actually lose to kv8 commander player? As far as I am aware, not many people do. Its bit of noobish unit like arty spamming, its annoying but mostly winnable.
P.S. If you haven't achieved almost full map control with t2 vs shocks and conscripts by the time KV8 hits the ground, then your opponent is much more skilled player or you messed up. No ground to blame KV8
Brumbar comes as call in for very well rounded German tier unlike Kv8 coming into Soviet tier that requires other call-in units to be effective against default German tier.
Eg. Kv8 means no guardsrifle meaning you must survive with semi-useless anti-armor shocks and Conscripts throughout German t2 scout spam and flame halftruck..... |
So, you're telling me that the reason the KV8 is "fine" is because the Soviet's early game is bad. How is that any justification to anything? Once the early game gets adjusted once more to balance things out a bit after the last AC buff, is the KV8 not going to spiral back out of control if it stays the same? Just because the faction's early game is shit at the moment does not mean a late game unit needs to insta-gib a squad upon contact. If the same amount of DPS was given to the Brummbar when Maxim spam was out of control, I guarantee Soviet players would have been crying (funny thing is, I did remember some Soviet players crying about the Elefant back during Maxim spam days). I play both factions and I have been on both the delivering and receiving end of KV8 flamethrower infantry-retreat-rape and believe me when I say it is ridiculous when used correctly.
I did not say anything about nerfing the KV8 and leave the rest of the Soviet faction as is. Rather, some trade between a buff to early game units and a simultaneous nerf to the KV8 is in order. Stop using one balance issue as an excuse to not correct another, because then I can say the reverse: "since the KV8 is so OP, Soviets should be utter shit early game." How does that sound?
Its just about useless in 3v3 and 4v4 (since 1 or 2 German players tech straight from t1 to t4, more often than not Piv will hit the ground before Kv8) |
make it so you can reconnect and "pause" option like in dota 2
and punishment would be that you cant join another game until the game you left is over
Fully agree, conditioned that each player is guaranteed satisfaction and game experience they desire. That means that someone's game experience isn't unsatisfactory to the point of not wishing to continue with match in question.
for example: lag, abuse, unbalanced game or in case of 2v2's and higher that rest of the players aren't finding the game frustrating because of 1 or 2 of players being inadequately equipped for the game, either through their ping, PC system, skill or general attitude.
It is just a game and we should all enjoy it. Forcing players to play through the game that feels like punishment or punishing them for wishing to leave is just not OK.
After all, some of us have fun as main motivation for playing Video Game.... |
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