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@Kiraye/PingPing - Saying the game isn't good is 100% your opinion. No one will like every game. There are plenty of people that don't like SC2... yet it's an esport. Plenty of people don't like DOTA/LoL(despite having played them for a VERY long time, I don't think MOBAs are at all well-designed games when it comes to esports/competitive play but that's a topic for a different thread) but they're still wildly successful esports. Even going back further looking at WC3 vs SC:BW - plenty of people didn't like WC3, but it was an extremely popular/competitive game. Just because some assumed proportion of the community doesn't like the game doesn't mean that it can't be successful. Another example is SSBM vs SSBB. Plenty of die-hard SSBM fans (myself included) don't like SSBB but it is still a successful game. If you don't like CoH 2 that's fine. Not everyone will, but remember that is your opinion.
@Kolaris - Major changes include vehicle scatter, veterency rework, map changes/additions, starting MP changes, structure build time changes and the growth of the meta game. Other, more subtle changes include Su85 nerfs, Soviet sniper nerfs, LMG42 nerfs (could probably still use some tweaking), HtD/PPSh bug fixes, tank resource costs were changed, command point rework, MG changes. There are probably other significant changes that I'm missing/forgetting but basically what this all means is that infantry combat is a lot more important throughout the entire game. Tanks are not nearly as powerful versus infantry/AT guns (although they're still great units) but you can no longer just spam a bunch of grens, get a P4 and go kill everything.
With the MG changes it is a lot harder/less powerful to spam a bunch of Cons/Grens meaning there is more need to build different types of squads. The mid game is more diverse because of tanks not being as powerful and often times late game still comes down to squad preservation, good flanks, and proper decision making in terms of tech choices.
Overall the game is significantly less "linear" than it used to be (guard/sniper/su85 beating everything or mass cons into T70 vs spam grens into spam P4s). It is much more important to have a more diverse army, and to be flexible throughout the game. Over time people have discovered plenty of viable openings for both factions so I find that there's a lot more variation than people like to admit.
Examples of viable openings in case people want me to prove this point:
Con spam with PPSh into T2/T3 (Ivan style)
Sniper/Guard into call in tanks or T4 (Ciez/Raz style)
2-3 Cons + T2 play into T3 or T4 (Hansi style)
Shocks + T2 play into T3 or T4
PPSh/Guards into T3 or T4 (Cataclaw does this a lot)
Irregulars (Dane style)
Partisans (really strong on some maps)
Gren spam with G43s into T3
2 Gren 2 MG FHT doom push (OMGPOP style)
3 Gren 2 MG FHT doom push (Barton style)
Gren Gren Sniper w/Elite troops (Ciez style)
Ostruppen play with MGs/FHT into T4(Hansi style)
1-2 Agrens into whatever else
I'm probably forgetting some, or not crediting people but this is just the stuff that comes off the top of my head in the short time I have to make this post. Hopefully it'll help people see that the game isn't as linear as people make it out to be. |
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I think people really need to take a step back and look at how/why games become esports. I'm saying this mostly for Inverse's sake, but a lot of people seem to share his (wrong) opinion on this matter.
IpKai is pretty much absolutely right in that communities, at least at first, are almost solely responsible for a game rising to esport status. Let's take a quick look at DoTA/LoL/SC2 since Inverse seems to love comparing the COH scene to those games.
LoL/DoTA/DoTA2 - A quick history lesson for those that don't know, the "MOBA" genre has actually been around since at least SC:BW - at least that is when that type of game gained any sort of notable popularity. However it didn't really become a thing until WC3/TFT when Eul/Guinsoo/IceFrog heavily modded Defense of the Ancients. To keep this as short as possible I'll skip more in-depth history of these games and get straight to the point. DoTA itself has existed for ~10 years (perhaps slightly longer and been a true esport a fraction of that time). The community that grew around the game escalated to game to esports status by self-run in-house leagues, tournaments/other competitions etc etc. DoTA (and LoL/HoN as a result) are hugely popular esports titles not because any certain company did something special, but because the community poured blood sweat and tears into cultivating a thriving competitive community. The same can happen with CoH 2. Also side-note... DoTA was designed as a casual custom map for WC3/TFT... not to be an esport.
As for SC 2, it really rides off the accidental success of SC:BW - which is also a byproduct of the Korean community. Before BW, SC was pretty much a completely fucking terrible game. Sure Blizzard made some great and much needed changes in their expansion (see any potential correlation to CoH 2 here? although COH 2 is way better than vanilla SC was) but the game was still little more than a hobby outside of Korea and perhaps... 5 or 6 "westerners." BW was hugely successful because the Korean community (not Blizzard) dedicated immense amounts of time/money/etc into growing and promoting the game. SC:BW was never designed to be an esport, hell there weren't really esports around at the time. So again, the community was the catalyst for growth.
IpKai's example of SSBM (super smash bros melee) is actually perfect. The game was actually designed strictly to be a casual party game. It was *NEVER* supposed to be an esport, but guess what... the community stepped up and organized events. I love the example of SSBM (and other fighters) because I was a tournament level melee player and I can tell you first hand that the community gets all the credit for promoting this game. There were countless underground tournaments all over the country/people flying thousands of miles for tiny cash prizes. Once again... not because SSBM was some hugely popular esport title, but because the community loved the game so much.
So no, you don't have to design your game to be an esport, history will show that the contrary is true (although developer support, which we have for COH 2 can help) - most major esports titles today were NEVER intended to be esports (SC:BW/DoTA/LoL/CS/HS). Yes a casual game can be played as an esport. And ultimately it is in the hands of the community how things will turn out.
Finally a quick plea to Inverse, and others, that haven't touched COH 2 in upwards of 6 months yet delude themselves into thinking they understand the state of the game - please play some CoH 2 before assuming things. The game now is WAY different (and way better) than it was back in the open beta/early release. The game is fun to play, takes more skill than most want to admit (because it is easier to cry RNG/pay2win than admit your own losses), and is beautiful to watch. Relic really wants to support us as a community, so why not stop bashing the game or comparing it to titles that have been around for over a decade, and actually start helping grow a competitive community. Everything is in place, we just have to do our parts. |
Nades Tier (effectiveness / cost)
God Tier: Gren Riflenade (cheap, G43 sometimes sound like Riflenade causing confusion, potential squad wipe)
Decent Tier: Cons Molotov (Thanks to movement lag, almost must kill 1-2 dude when you see cons igniting their Vodka, dirt cheap)
Good Tier: Guards' nade, Penals' bomb (squad wipe potential are damn too high)
Meh Tier: Shocks' nade (only useful because of their plasma armour, almost no AOE damage)
Shit Tier: PG's Bundled party popper (expensive bullshit only spammable in Ostosssssspen Doctrine)
Bundled Grenades have the exact same stats as the Guard Grenade...
Only reason Guard nade seems better is because you're throwing it at 4 guys instead of 6. |
I'll contest that by saying germans have 5 forms of AA across 3 tiers, but only one is dedicated.
Unless you're including tank MGs and/or the 222 I'm not really sure how you came by this number.
Either way the tank MGs are, generally, pretty terrible at shooting down any sort of strafing run (this is true for both sides) so I don't really count them at all. I guess sometimes you might get lucky and shoot down the plane... but 9 time out of 10 it won't help you. |
Just get AA
Geez, guys, don't you get tired of this "please nerf" posts.
I can start a post "Nerf Tigers and Panthers" because
U either:
1. Get AT
2. Loose
And I appreciate you understanding that IL2 strafe run is the most expensive ability in game.
You just don't understand the fact that if a Soviet player constantly spams Strafing Run at cost of 240 muni each...
U either:
1. Already lost
2. Or soviet player had to save all of this muni at the cost of other abilities like MINES.
So just go out party with dozen of tanks and you might turn tide of battle.
Just use your brain.
I bet you don't even understand the actual mechanics behind the IL-2 strafe and yet you post nonsense like this on the forums.
Also AA isn't reliable against any strafing run, I've had Ostwinds spend the entire duration of the strafe shooting but the IL-2 still passes three times. I've also killed Ostwinds with the IL-2. Furthermore for both factions AA comes out of a single tier of tech so saying "just get AA" isn't exactly a great argument.
Mark my words, IL-2 will be nerfed. |
typical German player crying, it cost a lot of ammunition to prevent spam of this ability
Nice first post. I see you're going to have a bright future here.
Anyways, next time please check my stats before posting utter rubbish. If you'd taken 1 second to click my playercard you'd realize that I play both factions frequently and at a very high level. When discussing balance I never prefer one faction over the other and my only goal is to make this game better/more balanced. If you can't deal with that... sorry.
Oh and if this post was too long/complicated for your minuscule brain let me give you the TLDR version: Stop being stupid. Typical dumbass being a dumbass.
Cheers. |
@CieZ yeah well done, make sure nobody ever forgets a slip of faith, and an private Yet unfortunate Diskussion between ami and a friend. Maybe you could sell some t-shirts too.
People asked what he said, I told them, simple as that. If the mods think my post needs to be deleted/removed then that's their call. I wasn't bashing Ami in what I posted, I was simply stating the facts regarding the likelihood (or lack thereof) of SNF 6. Ami clearly doesn't like/enjoy the game and admitted that he didn't like casting it - there's no reason he should put himself through months of casting COH2 if he doesn't enjoy it.
Also if anyone wants t-shirts I'd be happy to make a few bucks on the side xD |
Who were also wounded or lacking half of their men. I have never seen IL-2 run to kill whole healthy squads on retreat. Lets not exaggerate here because soon we will have the same situation like with Soviet mines which as is now believed kill whole squads with easy all the time.
I do understand that some poor guy got his army annihilated in some team game because he clustered his units but as said before for 240 munition this ability better does just that unless someone is happy to pay this amount for what could easily be a shooting recon plane.
Er... I've had countless instances of the IL-2 strafe instantly killing full HP squads. Both when I've used it and when it has been used against me, in every game size. The ability is beyond broken right now and definitely needs addressing - nothing in this game should be able to instantly kill a full HP squad with no way for the other player to react, it is just silly.
Even worse is that the Ostwind, at times, is awful at shooting down IL-2s. Even more hilarious is that IL-2 can easily finish off wounded tanks, and frequently causes engine damage and other crits because of how many times it hits in rapid succession.
The ability is broken, it will be nerfed, plain and simple. |
And what he did to Relic ?
Long story short, he called them "a shitty little company" after SNF was over, based SNF, bashed other casters, bashed CoH2 as a game...
More subtle undertones (relating to the discussion about Idra/Artosis and SC2) would imply that he was only ever in CoH2 and SNF5 in hopes that it would explode into an esport and that he'd skyrocket to easy efame and make a career out of casting.
Anyways, we should stay on topic though. Can PM me or something for more info if you're really curious. |
Hopefully there will be more of SNF! And i agree that 2vs2 tournaments could be cool. But first there is needed a spectator mode so that live matches can be streamed, insteed of replays!  Cheers
I think after the drama that was unleashed this weekend that it is pretty clear that there will never be an SNF 6. Even more frankly, Ami really shot himself in the foot if he wants to try and cast any game in the future - what company is going to give him any sort of tournament support after what he did to Relic =/
That being said... given that a lot of people seem to want a 2vs2 tournament I think it'd be great if someone could organize it! |
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