Call to action - Let's Be Awesome Together

Ciez can you elaborate on what has changed? I admit I haven't played CoH2 since the last beta, but I have followed its updates closely. I haven't seen anything that would change the fundamental gameplay flaws that turned me off from CoH2 in the first place.

And we got P2W DLC thrown in, so in a classic Relic turnaround the balance may have improved (outside the DLC anyway) but the overall game has gotten worse, from my perspective.

Ciez - the problem is the game - to the majority of players and not the minority which unfortunately you are a part of - it just IS NOT FUN.
...........
Till they make the game enjoyable for the majority - this game is done for.

I am not trying to argue with your opinion, but saying that the majority of players does not enjoy the game, is not a fact you can proof in any way. Sure, you and many friends of yours do not, agreed. But, I can counter and say that many of my friends actually do - which is true.

Your majority most likely is a specific fraction of the those who play CoH2 (e.g. esport/competitive players, who care about their rank/stats/streaks etc.). But for many other paying customers, your problems or fun issues are not the same or have the same priority. Claiming a majority without the statistics means nothing.

Otherwise, I think CieZ made some very valid points - great post. I also agree with DerBaer, that some just do not want to understand what Noun was saying in the first place.

CoH2 is well below vCoH's player marks before the move to Steam. Certainly more people own vCoH, and CoH2 is doing "better" at the same point in its lifespan, but that's inevitable with the success of its predecessor.

What we can tell is that CoH2 isn't growing. Maybe that has changed since someone showed me the data a couple months back, but CoH2 has been getting an amazing amount of bad press that goes well beyond the competitive "vocal minority" community.

I think people really need to take a step back and look at how/why games become esports. I'm saying this mostly for Inverse's sake, but a lot of people seem to share his (wrong) opinion on this matter.

IpKai is pretty much absolutely right in that communities, at least at first, are almost solely responsible for a game rising to esport status. Let's take a quick look at DoTA/LoL/SC2 since Inverse seems to love comparing the COH scene to those games.

LoL/DoTA/DoTA2 - A quick history lesson for those that don't know, the "MOBA" genre has actually been around since at least SC:BW - at least that is when that type of game gained any sort of notable popularity. However it didn't really become a thing until WC3/TFT when Eul/Guinsoo/IceFrog heavily modded Defense of the Ancients. To keep this as short as possible I'll skip more in-depth history of these games and get straight to the point. DoTA itself has existed for ~10 years (perhaps slightly longer and been a true esport a fraction of that time). The community that grew around the game escalated to game to esports status by self-run in-house leagues, tournaments/other competitions etc etc. DoTA (and LoL/HoN as a result) are hugely popular esports titles not because any certain company did something special, but because the community poured blood sweat and tears into cultivating a thriving competitive community. The same can happen with CoH 2. Also side-note... DoTA was designed as a casual custom map for WC3/TFT... not to be an esport.

As for SC 2, it really rides off the accidental success of SC:BW - which is also a byproduct of the Korean community. Before BW, SC was pretty much a completely fucking terrible game. Sure Blizzard made some great and much needed changes in their expansion (see any potential correlation to CoH 2 here? although COH 2 is way better than vanilla SC was) but the game was still little more than a hobby outside of Korea and perhaps... 5 or 6 "westerners." BW was hugely successful because the Korean community (not Blizzard) dedicated immense amounts of time/money/etc into growing and promoting the game. SC:BW was never designed to be an esport, hell there weren't really esports around at the time. So again, the community was the catalyst for growth.

IpKai's example of SSBM (super smash bros melee) is actually perfect. The game was actually designed strictly to be a casual party game. It was *NEVER* supposed to be an esport, but guess what... the community stepped up and organized events. I love the example of SSBM (and other fighters) because I was a tournament level melee player and I can tell you first hand that the community gets all the credit for promoting this game. There were countless underground tournaments all over the country/people flying thousands of miles for tiny cash prizes. Once again... not because SSBM was some hugely popular esport title, but because the community loved the game so much.

So no, you don't have to design your game to be an esport, history will show that the contrary is true (although developer support, which we have for COH 2 can help) - most major esports titles today were NEVER intended to be esports (SC:BW/DoTA/LoL/CS/HS). Yes a casual game can be played as an esport. And ultimately it is in the hands of the community how things will turn out.

Finally a quick plea to Inverse, and others, that haven't touched COH 2 in upwards of 6 months yet delude themselves into thinking they understand the state of the game - please play some CoH 2 before assuming things. The game now is WAY different (and way better) than it was back in the open beta/early release. The game is fun to play, takes more skill than most want to admit (because it is easier to cry RNG/pay2win than admit your own losses), and is beautiful to watch. Relic really wants to support us as a community, so why not stop bashing the game or comparing it to titles that have been around for over a decade, and actually start helping grow a competitive community. Everything is in place, we just have to do our parts.

The thing is, if you want a successful competitive scene, you need a game that people are going to want to play competitively. You make this point yourself; Starcraft and DotA were not successful competitive games until they became games that people wanted to play competitively. DotA took a long time to mature, and underwent a number of drastic redesigns; entire mechanics were reworked over and over to get to where the game is today. Starcraft wasn't played competitively very much until Brood War, because that expansion made people want to play it competitively.

This doesn't have to be intentionally done. Starcraft was a pioneer, and nobody had any expectations. They just happened to create something that people wanted to play competitively. Every single game with a successful competitive scene right now has been successful because they've created a game that the competitive player wants to play (with the possible exception of LoL, which I'll get to in a moment). Intention doesn't matter at all.

Of course, other games can be played competitively, but they will never have a large amount of success if they don't have elements that directly attract the type of player that makes competitive games successful. Smash Brothers, like CoH2, wasn't designed to be competitive, and isn't really a good competitive game. That doesn't mean people can't enjoy playing it competitively, or watching it competitively. But it will never be a successful game from a competitive perspective because it does not attract the type of person who enjoys competitive games. Those people will play SC2, or Dota 2, or CS, or any number of games that cater to their interests more.

Look at it this way: nobody picks up CoH2 because they want to play it competitively. They pick it up because it interests them, and then maybe after a while they start playing it competitively because that's something they're interested in. Same with Smash Brothers. Same with vCoH, though to a lesser extent than CoH2.

Now, the reason people are upset about CoH2 competitively isn't because it's not a good game to be played competitively. It's because Relic led us to believe that making the game a good game to play competitively was something they actually cared about. They made us believe that CoH2 would be a step up from vCoH for the competitive community. vCoH was one of those games that wasn't designed to be played competitively yet had a large following because it just worked. So when CoH2 comes along and we learn that most of what we were told was bullshit, you can forgive us for our frustration. Relic made us believe they wanted to move CoH closer to SC2 and further from Smash Brothers on the spectrum of competitive gaming. They haven't. It was a lie. CoH2 doesn't take one single step forward as a competitive game; in many instances, it takes steps back.

The truth is, CoH2 alienated the community that made vCoH a success. CoH2 can still maintain a niche competitive scene, just like Smash Brothers does, but in order to do that it needs to attract new people, because the old guard has been fed too much bullshit to care anymore. Problem is, any new player has to wade through piles of game-altering DLC and a community that is not very happy with its developer. It can happen, but it's going to be hard. And hell, maybe an expansion will come out and it will attract a competitive scene, just like Brood War did for Starcraft. If that happens, I would love to be a part of it. But after this whole fiasco, I am less than optimistic.

Now, you brought up League of Legends, which is an interesting case, because the competitive scene has been created entirely by its developers. When Riot is paying something like 16 teams to play full-time, it's hard to judge the merits of its competitive scene. I think if Relic decided to do the same, we might have some more people playing CoH2 competitively regardless of the state of the game. Just maybe.

As for me personally, I haven't played again because none of the changes have addressed problems with the game itself. It's all been balance, and balance was never an issue I had with the game. Balance is something you care about when you love what the game has to offer in terms of gameplay and strategy. I could care less about balance, because the core game is still the same, and I don't like the core game.

@Kiraye/PingPing - Saying the game isn't good is 100% your opinion. No one will like every game. There are plenty of people that don't like SC2... yet it's an esport. Plenty of people don't like DOTA/LoL(despite having played them for a VERY long time, I don't think MOBAs are at all well-designed games when it comes to esports/competitive play but that's a topic for a different thread) but they're still wildly successful esports. Even going back further looking at WC3 vs SC:BW - plenty of people didn't like WC3, but it was an extremely popular/competitive game. Just because some assumed proportion of the community doesn't like the game doesn't mean that it can't be successful. Another example is SSBM vs SSBB. Plenty of die-hard SSBM fans (myself included) don't like SSBB but it is still a successful game. If you don't like CoH 2 that's fine. Not everyone will, but remember that is your opinion.

@Kolaris - Major changes include vehicle scatter, veterency rework, map changes/additions, starting MP changes, structure build time changes and the growth of the meta game. Other, more subtle changes include Su85 nerfs, Soviet sniper nerfs, LMG42 nerfs (could probably still use some tweaking), HtD/PPSh bug fixes, tank resource costs were changed, command point rework, MG changes. There are probably other significant changes that I'm missing/forgetting but basically what this all means is that infantry combat is a lot more important throughout the entire game. Tanks are not nearly as powerful versus infantry/AT guns (although they're still great units) but you can no longer just spam a bunch of grens, get a P4 and go kill everything.

With the MG changes it is a lot harder/less powerful to spam a bunch of Cons/Grens meaning there is more need to build different types of squads. The mid game is more diverse because of tanks not being as powerful and often times late game still comes down to squad preservation, good flanks, and proper decision making in terms of tech choices.

Overall the game is significantly less "linear" than it used to be (guard/sniper/su85 beating everything or mass cons into T70 vs spam grens into spam P4s). It is much more important to have a more diverse army, and to be flexible throughout the game. Over time people have discovered plenty of viable openings for both factions so I find that there's a lot more variation than people like to admit.

Examples of viable openings in case people want me to prove this point:

Con spam with PPSh into T2/T3 (Ivan style)
Sniper/Guard into call in tanks or T4 (Ciez/Raz style)
2-3 Cons + T2 play into T3 or T4 (Hansi style)
Shocks + T2 play into T3 or T4
PPSh/Guards into T3 or T4 (Cataclaw does this a lot)
Irregulars (Dane style)
Partisans (really strong on some maps)

Gren spam with G43s into T3
2 Gren 2 MG FHT doom push (OMGPOP style)
3 Gren 2 MG FHT doom push (Barton style)
Gren Gren Sniper w/Elite troops (Ciez style)
Ostruppen play with MGs/FHT into T4(Hansi style)
1-2 Agrens into whatever else

I'm probably forgetting some, or not crediting people but this is just the stuff that comes off the top of my head in the short time I have to make this post. Hopefully it'll help people see that the game isn't as linear as people make it out to be.

Ciez can you elaborate on what has changed? I admit I haven't played CoH2 since the last beta, but I have followed its updates closely.

http://www.companyofheroes2.net/2013/12/strategy-and-unit-balance-beta-vs-december-2013/

CoH2 is well below vCoH's player marks before the move to Steam. Certainly more people own vCoH, and CoH2 is doing "better" at the same point in its lifespan, but that's inevitable with the success of its predecessor.

What we can tell is that CoH2 isn't growing. Maybe that has changed since someone showed me the data a couple months back, but CoH2 has been getting an amazing amount of bad press that goes well beyond the competitive "vocal minority" community.

Please provide an example of said "bad press", after all there is an amazing amount of it out there right? Pretty sure when I googled CoH2 last on news search all I got was "CoH2 free weekend" which doesn't speak to the quality of the game at all.

You haven't played the game since beta, if you want to get a feel for the differences just play a couple games, otherwise all of your statements are weak conjecture.

Two of the popular user-defined tags on Steam are "DLC whoring" and "Pay 2 Win". Not to mention the 1.8 Metacritic user rating from over 5000 reviews.

Two of the popular user-defined tags on Steam are "DLC whoring" and "Pay 2 Win". Not to mention the 1.8 Metacritic user rating from over 5000 reviews.

Indeed - it's now that sad it's actually become funny.

http://www.coh2.org/topic/14084/be-my-valentine

Also go have a look at the steam user reviews....and you'll get the idea.

Of course, other games can be played competitively, but they will never have a large amount of success if they don't have elements that directly attract the type of player that makes competitive games successful. Smash Brothers, like CoH2, wasn't designed to be competitive, and isn't really a good competitive game. That doesn't mean people can't enjoy playing it competitively, or watching it competitively. But it will never be a successful game from a competitive perspective because it does not attract the type of person who enjoys competitive games. Those people will play SC2, or Dota 2, or CS, or any number of games that cater to their interests more.

That makes no sense to me, I enjoy playing games competitively but I hate playing SC2 I find it sterile, safe and it feels like a game of going through the motions. I hate playing mobas because I'm not a big fan of team games and I don't like FPS so what's left in this list of legitimate competitive games?

I don't like the core game.

'nuff said.

I don't like World of Tanks, find me on their forums.

That makes no sense to me, I enjoy playing games competitively but I hate playing SC2 I find it sterile, safe and it feels like a game of going through the motions. I hate playing mobas because I'm not a big fan of team games and I don't like FPS so what's left in this list of legitimate competitive games?

Those people will play SC2, or Dota 2, or CS, or any number of games that cater to their interests more.

So games you like then. Very good.

'nuff said.

I don't like World of Tanks, find me on their forums.

If you invested four years into its predecessor maybe you would.

So games you like then. Very good.

Of course. But there are a lot of people out there who like to play a game they can enjoy competitively. Most of those players will not choose CoH2 to be that game.

I wouldn't invest four years into playing any game, not going to get a very good roi on that.

I did however, play vCoH since it's release. CoH2 is a different game, it's not exactly what I wanted, but I still think it's a fun game. I'm really sorry that it wasn't what you wanted, I wish you could get enjoyment out of playing it.

Of course. But there are a lot of people out there who like to play a game they can enjoy competitively. Most of those players will not choose CoH2 to be that game.

Why not? Are you egotistical enough to think you can speak on behalf of everyone who likes to play video games against other people?

The thread has devolved

"I don't like the game"
---
"I like the game"

I am guilty.

Of course not. But think of it this way. There are a lot of people leaving SC2 right now; it's not doing so well, and people are looking for other games to play. A lot of those players followed SC2 for so long because they enjoyed the eSports scene. They enjoyed following their favourite players, watching tournaments, and in some instances training and practicing to play in amateur, semi-professional, and professional tournaments.

When a player like that is looking for a game to replace SC2 as their competitive game of choice, what do you think the likelihood is of them choosing CoH2? I'd wager it's not very high. There are other games out there that offer a lot more to a player like that.

Not saying that's a bad thing, because people are going to keep buying CoH2 if it's something that interests them, and some of those people are going to get hooked and want to get into the competitive side of things. But it likely won't grow beyond a niche scene if people aren't picking it up because they specifically want to play it competitively.

The thread has devolved

"I don't like the game"
---
"I like the game"

I am guilty.

okay im gonna post this here so when its all over you can all know that... ring ring!!!

the phone (you should answer it)
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