I feel like the maxim spam and shock spam will go away when both guards and shocks are moved to 2 cp, which relic will most likely do. Guards can come before tier 2 is even built. Guards like I said in another thread, can easily kill these tier 2 vehicles. Once that threat is delayed, now maxims will be extremely vulnerable to tier 2 vehicles and the spam will diminish.
Currently, Tier 2 vehicles are risky and most of the time not worth investing due to early guards. Once that changes, then the nazis won't have to worry about that annoying maxim spam and don't have to pray to the Rng god of mortars.
Shocks come too early, that's the only problem. Now that they are delayed, tier 2 vehicles will be out to eradicate them if the soviet decides to spam them. Which will ultimately make soviet doctrines more situational since if the Nazis went tier 2 vehicles, the soviet will get guards but if the germans got pgrens or lmg grens, then the soviet uses shocks.
shocks just need lower armour OR rifles need to do more dps OR made harder to spam. thats about it. if shocks come at 2cp, they would have no usability, these guys have no AT. there will be no need for shocks anymore.
and guards, if early guards meant something, it means no shocks. spam away with pgrens, not t2 vehicles. get a mht for their maxims and flank flank flank. guards dont stand much of a chance against pgrens. unless u get caught by maxims, then its a user issue not a balance one.
if shocks and guards are both used, its time to tag up with ur mate, not fight 1v1x2 |
The elephant can be countered by at guns, but the problem with this doctrine is that it also has stuka bomb which is always used to destroy at guns. No way you can reposition at guns in time without losing one of them.
elefants in the natural habitat, are usually deep within the hostile german savannah. in this savannah, you'd find nasty surprises such as paks and mg42s, loads of pgrens/grens crawling about, sometimes a sniper or 2, waiting for the chance to get the jump on unsuspecting soviets. not sure how you teleport your AT guns in range of an elefant.
I have never had a problem taking elephants out. If you are discussing a doctrinal unit as if every Ost player will deploy it I am going to say mark target and 1 T34, done.
Or if you can't do that try guards, or failing that, try shocks with a shrek when you find one. Or if all that fails get a zis. Or use kats to pick away at it. Or, and I cannot stress this enough, place mines as you retreat. You have the munitions. Elephant with engine damage is dead. You can bomb it, you can strafe it, you can hit it with arty, and it can't move. Keep in mind you can lose 3 t34's and come out ahead when fighting an elephant.
You can beat it using only 2 su85's, going shocks, and relying on other units to bring it down. It was easy to lure the elephant into a duel with 2 su85's and use mines and bombing runs with kats to whittle away at supporting units and it. Even better the player was desperate to repair the elephant so I would stop firing arty for long periods to encourage pioneers to approach and repair then hit it with a combined strike to bleed out man power. Eventually killed it with 1 su85 shot to the front when it was low health. In addition, I knew at all times where his entire army was located since he could not leave the elephant. Elephants are hard counters to soviet camping game play approach, but relatively weak to a mobile and aggressive soviet player.
idk what you smoke, i'd like to have some of that. but okay, if you say so. rebutting this takes too much effort. |
Same was the case in Dawn of War 2, where Space Marines were always the most played race no matter how the balance state currently was.
i miss fighting against a coordinated team of 3 orks. cant believe i sunk thousands of hours into all 3 expansions, i just hope relic dont stop making more of it, dont pass it on to creative assembly!
anyways, the is2 is a great tank, good armour and sometimes a 1 shot wonder(i always smile when it 1 shots a vet3 infantry squad), except german tanks are more focused on killing tanks. so putting them side by side, is2 might seem a little bad, but thats okay.
isu152 and elefants however are a point of concern. the elefant is virtually impregnable by soviet conventional tactics and creates a HUGE tank denial. the only few ways to bring it down are 50mins of ptrs fire, lucky IL2 bomb strikes or maybe the 203mm precision(which i rather not buy) strikes. i alway have no idea what to do when it pops out in a 2v2.
same with isu152. this is a wipe everything unit in a MASSIVE range, can crew shock vehicles and snipe infantry. bringing a gun comparable to the is2, except with the range of a ICBM.
these 2 units are god damn difficult to balance imo. i would rather if they lose their artillery range, given a little more speed and traverse and put them in assault gun ranges comparable to su85s, of course with a fuel reduction. |
And this forum favors Ostheer bias overall. Ost needs tweaks to be sure. But they are hardly as bad as folks on this forum makes them out to be.
The real weakness is their instagibs due to four man squads. But unit for unit they either perform as well for cost and role or perform better.
And for the record the ISU152 does nit perform nearly as welk as one woukd think it shoukd being that it is by far the most expensive unit in game. It needs a price decrease or a buff if relic wants to keep it at the absurd 290 fuel.
+1
i have a mostly easier time with ost than soviets, but that doesnt mean soviets are weak or ost is too powerful. its the difference in the way they are played. get a tight map like pripyat and mg42, mht will reign supreme.
get a wider map, molotovs and conscripts are more effective but no less uncounterable, grenspam + snipers usually put a good stop to conscript + shock spam.
however when late game comes, more and more lethal weapons are deployed and units get 1 shotted. also ost has alot of difficulty recrewing weapon teams. they could use a 2 man recrew, rather than 3. go by percentage, not a solid number to allow flexibility?
honestly speaking i think ost has more balance issues late game. elefants are almost impregnable to anything the soviet has. shots bouncing off tiger rear armour(these should be paper thin, even a greyhound can penetrate the rear armour of a tiger back in vcoh). the only real armour soviet have are the t34/85s and is2. the rest are no longer good.
lastly, this is more of a mechanics issue, tanks vs infantry combat is quite screwed, the variations are way too erratic. sometimes ur 1st shot of the t34/p4 might kill 1-2 models, sometimes it takes 5-6 shots and everything misses. because AI tanks have 0 accuracy against infantry and highly dependent on scatter and AOE for their killing power. this means that going closer to reduce the scatter deviation improves their chance of hitting, i saw this many times before. stay at max range, tanks take forever to kill '
anything, go close up, wipe everything.
yet the day i want to close in to infantry with my tanks will never come since everyone is loaded with vehicle snaring abilities. so this puts medium tanks in a weird spot since they cannot be used as fire support, but only as shock units. this makes t34s/p4 rather useless after the shock phases. since heavier tanks/su85 are fielded slightly later, the moment med tanks show their face, they are immediately hunted down and destroyed.
in vcoh things were more consistent, AT tanks have low accuracy against infantry, AI tanks have high accuracy against them. so these assured hits makes AI tanks reliable against infantry no matter the distance, in turn becoming very effective fire support behind a good infantry screen. i have tried it in games with p4/t34, its a always either me being super lucky and hit something on the 1st shot, or being not so lucky and hit something after 3-4 shots.
as for the vehicle vs infantry, its something that i have observed and experienced, so its sort of a hypothesis. it could very well be just me and perception bias having a delusional orgy. |
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ok nvm, I have found the real problem. The problem is smg weapons both ppsh and mp44s are loaded with so much dps at close range and are more or less equal in terms in long range, that is why theres the dominance of smg weapons over rifle infantry.
strangely enough, the mp40 is left rather similar to rifle damage ranges or in the case of assault grens, about a 25% increase in dps in close range(compared to grenadiers), while retaining only 50% of grenadier's dps at long range, but they have an extra man to make up for the rather modest boost in close range dps. which places combat against them in a rather comfortable position where they lose out to conscripts at long, but beat them handily up close. <--- this is the finesse that was lost here, in regards to small arms combat in vcoh, US vs Wehr.
however with pgrens and shock troops, their close range dps boosts are about 300-400% increase, mid range about 100-110% increase and close range about 10% increase. they are a direct upgrade to rifles at all ranges and it is no wonder they faceroll at their optimal ranges.
as long as there is this huge disparity in the dps of rifles and smg and it isnt hard for squads to close in, they will always faceroll rifle infantry. |
From a high level 1v1 perspective i see absolutely no problem with multiple Panzergrenadiere, since they got clear disadvantages (45 reinforcement cost) and counters (Snipers, Mgs, Vehicles, Explosives, Mines, Shocks, Infantry (if upgraded with Schreck)).
But i can see the average player having trouble with the unkillable anti-everything blob of doom.
it might not be so bad in 1v1, it sure is in 2v2 where it is easier to hit critical mass. vehicles is barely an answer to these guys because of the recent vehicle nerfs as explained in my 1st post. |
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like I said, pgrens are of no issue when there only a small amount. it is when they hit critical mass, then things are problematic.
snipers are a great counter to pgrens, but 3 pgrens running down ur infantry such as conscripts, guards, only 1 squad have to chase down the sniper, the other 2 will clean up the riflemen bundled nades and stg44 produce so much dps that conscripts, guards cannot compete even if you outnumber them.
also getting a maxim and a sniper means opening myself free to ostwinds/p4 rush.
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i think im close to giving up on this forum, this forum is more pro german than pro balance. yes is2 1 shots paks and guards nade 1 shot grenadiers from time to time.
isu152 is a piece of shit that is pretty much anti all which i agree that its range and destructive capability is tad too high, shocktroopers are durable and difficult to dislodge, it is a problem when used enmassed.
people dont realise ost mortars are more consistent in hitting units and wiping, bundled nades have potential to squad wipe, same with rifle nades. brumbars are insane against infantry (not sure what you guys are smoking). incendiary rounds makes weapon teams almost useless and comes on a 1cp unit, its like cheap version of incendiary barrage that soviet gets.
elefants denys tanks and impregnable from the front, while soviets have to FLANK WITH AT GUNS to damage elefants or lollygag with the ptrs for 10mins to do some damage? t34/85 shots bounce off tiger rear armour(WHAT). ost units have such huge dps that even retreating dont save units from getting wiped.
and all these because of what?
DEUTSCHLAND STAHL > STALIN |
considering that pgrens cost 50% more than grens, but have the same hp and armor, the only reason theyre worth the cost is because of their dps. so why should a conscript be able to beat pgrens? even if you take ppsh, theyre still much cheaper. pgrens are the strongest german infantry, cons are the cheapest soviet infantry and t0. thats like complaining that grens cant beat shocks.
as for your analysis of pgren dps, you failed to factor in the drop in dps when entities die. they have pretty good dps when its a 4 man schreck squad. lose 1 man and your dps is now cut in half. 1 more and dps is essentially 0, excluding very rare schreck hits. youre also risking dropping schrecks at that point, which is a big hit to german munitions and is also deadly in the hands of 6 man soviet squads.
without taking the schreck upgrade, pgrens have the same weakness as penals/shocks/agrens. they have no AT. pgrens are either AI or AT, but not both at the same time.
I think you have missed the point entirely. the point here is that, pgrens are too good at what they do, faceraping all matter of soviet 'RIFLE' infantry. once reaching critical mass, they facerape almost everything except the heaviest of tanks.
going by your logic, shocktroopers should steamroll german infantry and completely invalidate them? if so, there wouldnt be a 15page discussion on it and the general consensus that shocks are too good. even more so, they should when they cost 1cp, doctrinally locked and cost 440mp compared to a t2 ost unit that are available to all commanders at 360mp. but no, even I think that is absurd and needs to be toned down.
similarly for penal battalion, they cost 50% more than conscripts, retain the same armour and hp, yet are not mowing down grenadiers like no tomorrow. that is accceptable, but pgrens are not, they must cut down all rifle infantry?
while conscripts are 'THE' cheapest soviet infantry, they are not free. while true that pgrens should have an advantage over conscripts, they should not be able to walk all over them.
currently the usage and results of pgrens is essentially the same as shocks, rush through open cover, hose everything down with bullets, chuck a nade here and there then walk out with vet and a couple of casualties, with 5-10 dead soviet soldiers laying all over. they should never have this kind of lethality. all while the soviet player watch in horror as his rifle infantry are cut down while under cover against 4 dudes with wonder weapons.
while i may have failed to factor in the drop in dps, it happens for all infantry squads. take guards for example, ptrs do nothing and guards already have mediocre dps, for every guardsmen that dies, dps is also cut. lose half of the guards squad, and they cant even take on tanks and do negligible damage to infantry, so pgrens arent the only unit suffering from this 'phenomenon'.
but what we cannot discount is pgrens after the upgrade, are NOT helpless against infantry. they have their nade still, their dps is acceptable and can defend themselves against infantry trying to force a retreat on them. try to use a conscript to intercept them, a 240mp dedicated AI squad might take heavy casualties from this 360mp/120munition AT squad. but actually this is a very minor point that I made to show
this brings us to the next issue, they have the same problem with shocktroopers, individually, they are manageable, spam 4-5 of them, they become a problem. but they amplify it by being able to take on armour. while shocks roll only infantry, a combination of 4-5 squads of pgrens with a couple upgraded with schrecks are able to achieve the anti everything force.
this is the real problem, once they achieve that moving blob of dps, there is no soviet infantry that can take them on. they will dish out so much damage on all sorts of soviet infantry. bring out tanks and you can turn a couple of them into AT squads and still walk all over soviet lines, even more so when tanks are penalized for moving and shooting.
currently pgrens may seem okay, because shocks are keeping them in check, take that away and ask a guards player, it is a huge problem. |
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gotta do a disclaimer 1st. this is in no retaliation towards shocktroopers. infact, I'm more of a guards player than a shock player. but i find myself t the massive disadvantage, guards and conscripts dont have the oomph to stop these guys from facerolling.
anyone that has played germans will in some way or another get a couple of pgren to stem the tide of soviet infantry (not that LMG and rifle nades dont do the job, pgrens takes alot lesser micro).
however, these guys are basically assault grens on steroids, they do effective damage on the move and from range and when close up, they are even more lethal. they faceroll conscripts, penals and guards just like shocktroopers faceroll grenadiers. maintaining range and in cover do nothing when guards/cons dont have the dps.
the only thing capable of stopping them are shocktroopers, penal's satchel charges, good artillery hits. conscripts are in no way capable even with ppshes and molotovs since pgrens are mobile and do even more dps than conscripts with or without ppshes.
moving on, with vet, they become monsters, shredding all soviet infantry with ease. but here's the worst, even more so than shocktroopers is that they are so versatile, using tanks against them is a bad strategy too. panzerschrecks are counter buffed by vehicle fire on the move nerf, that means t34s on the move are virtually useless against pgrens and they can chase AI tanks for god knows when with their schrecks. whats more, schrecks have the same aim and accuracy as tanks, they can now fight tanks effectively at tank combat ranges.
so what is up? was nothing learnt at vcoh? when schrecks, bazookas and piats all have their long range accuracy nerfed?
while panzerschrecks cut AI by half, the dps of stg44 still remains deadly. at close range, it does 13.277, at long 1.775. by comparison, a grenadier rifle does 3.775 at close, long range they do 1.029. a healthy vanila gren squad will do 15.1dps at close range, about 4dps at long. while a schrecked pgren squad will do 26.554 at close, 3.55 at long. a good 85% of a vanilla gren squad dps is retained at long range and much deadlier at close. so the idea that they are not effective in AI is very debatable, because clearly, they are still rather effective against rifle troops
this brings us to the next issue, they have the same problem with shocktroopers, individually, they are manageable, spam 4-5 of them, they become a problem. but they amplify it by being able to take on armour. while shocks roll only infantry, a combination of 4-5 squads of pgrens with a couple upgraded with schrecks are able to achieve the anti everything force.
pgrens needs a good looking at, for their cost, availability and anti all potential, they need nerfs. same with shocks for reasons that are painfully obvious. |
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