Pretty sure the barrage on the Zis-3 is the same as on the SU-76.....
If the SU-76 needs a buff it could just be in the form of a cost reduction to its fuel price making it even more affordable as a supplementary AT platform to back up a T-34 or T-70 when you can’t afford or don’t want an SU-85 and also more affordable as an emergency AT solution if you skipped Tier 2.
Damage stats and prices are the same, different in shells fired, max range and ability recharging time. Zis-3 fires 4 shots with 30s recharge and 60 max range, and su-76 fires 6 shots with 80s recharing time and 80 max range.
I don't think su-76 barrage has to have a max range like a mortar, it could be decreased, but the 80s recharge is just insane. |
Perhaps you need an emergency Jagdtiger?
Emergency doesn't mean it's going to be as effective as AT you can get at your leisure. It's mobile enough that you should be able to back away from incoming doom (unlike with say a zis) and once you weather the storm you can make use of its barrage. It's a multirole assault gun, if you can't make use of it for what it is that's unfortunate for you but the unit already has a role.
StuG clone.... Jeeze...
OK we dont hold the same opinion on "emergencey". Yes it is multirole vehcle, but in current state it is more like "jack of all trades master of none". Not an effective at option, meanwhile has a barrage recharging time of 80s which is longer than a howitzer.
Make the barrage a zis version copy, then I would say its fine, being a okayish at and nice barrage. |
The su76 doesn't need to have an always build role. As it stands it's a good emergency TD. It's got good pen and ROF and it's barrage means it isn't wasted when you get your proper AT out. It's semi niche but doesn't require a whole rework..
Make it deal 160 with vet and call it a day
No it is not even reliable if you use it as an emergency td.
120 damage means it need to deal 6 penertrated shot to kill a panzer 4, consider that its penertration has been lowered to 180/170/160 the shot may deflect if luck isn't with you.
Its rof was toned down long ago, now its reload time is 3.9-4.4 so it needs at least 24 seconds to fire enough shots to deal with single panzer 4 alone.
You may argue that su-76 can't be the only AT unit on field, then assume that there is already a zis. In a 10 second window both zis and su-76 can fire 2 shots, that is 560 damage in total, able to get a stug but not a ost panzer 4. So how can you call it "good emergency unit"? In the same senario double zis will definely perform better.
And fausted su-76 can be killed by 2 tank shots, 3 shots if not fausted. Does zis-3 die of 3 panzer4 shots?
If su-76 means to be good emergency unit, it will need a health buff or damage/rof buff. Health to 560 / vanilla damage to 160, since it lacks turret. Remove the barrage and make it a soviet stug then, but that is absolutely not the design philosophy of it. |
The T-70, Start and Valentine have little to fear from HMG AP rounds
The luch can take allot of damage and Puma get blown up.
Point here is simply one does not need a SU-76 to counter anything bellow a Stug.
Then you mean that su-76 is kind of pointless in soviet t3, no place for it in current meta, since wehr player don't rush for a stug. That's why I suggest it needs adjustment.
Pgrens are good units but rarely used, so they get adjustments and you can see them more often. The same should apply to su-76. |
The argument that a unit is not being used that is not cost efficient does not hold much water. It was proven clearly by Dshk or even shock before the buff.
Luch needs a Puma since it extremely low AT, T-70 does not need a SU-76 to protect it.
I have provided you the stats that SU-76 is superior vs mediums tanks to Puma.
And that is why lowering the price of T2 for soviets makes little sense, it did not help make t2 built more attractive it help to back tech and making a zis instead of SU-76.
Once more the main reasons you do not see units like SU-76, Easy8, Sherman 76, 105 dozer, Panzer J is not that the units are somehow bad:
there are simply better options to invest resources in
Ostheer have little reason to invest in T3 units
Seems like su-76 is the only stock unit. Why can't it be buffed to be useful, like what they've done to wehr ostwind. |
Su76 is already cheaper and faster than stug, is a better mid game TD too.
Barrage is better than twp to infinity.
I think su76 is as good as it gets.
Like stug, use as fast or back tech to supplement.
Stug is pretty useless against sov and usf. While su76 works good against wehr and ok against okw without a pak 60 response
Nah noone would back tech to get su-76, 120 damage and 400 hp makes it hardly a good AT choice. Stug with 50 range is okay because it deals 160 damage per shot and has 560 hp with decent armor. |
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Remove ml-20, get isu-152 then.
Make this commander great again. |
SU-76 one of SU units that you cuold see ones in blue moon, like old ostwind. While other rare units such as mortar and halftrack have their roles and could work, su-76 just out-of-meta waste of resources. It can't hardcounter mediums, it only can deal with LV on range. SU-76 compare to zis-3 just bunch of problems and have only few real pros:
1. It give you some AT
2. It have more defense against small arm fire and mortars than zis-3
But cons:
1. It delay your T4 on 75 fuel
2. It very squishy, it's just glass cannon with low damage
3. You can't fully rely on it
With current patch that locked heavies in T4, build su-76 is even worse than earlier. I don't know, IMHO it better totally erase this unit from game or make full rework. Any strong AT in soviet T3 make spam of su-76 and t-70, with weak AT you don't need this unit at all. You have zis-3 with the same abilities and much more better scaling into lategame than su-76. Vet3 zis will give you more than vet3 su-76.
IMHO i already suggested, that one of possible reworks of su-76 - it's make from it, what it was in reality - infantry support unit, not TD. Something closer to role of Scotch of StugE, but not TD.
Due it low armor it can't act like StugE and Scotch role is more closer to it.
1. Add "Fire Mode" like KV-2 have - barrage become free, but su-76 can't move and rotation speed decreased, recharge time of barrage is decreased. When mode is turn off, su-76 got penalty to moving like su-85 and HE barrage will go to cooldown (to prevent abuse when player will go to mode to faster recharge HE barrage or double barrages).
2. Regular HE barrage still costs resources when used not in mode
3. Add smoke barrage
4. Add timed ability to shoot to armor units, hitted unit will be lighten (ability like soviet baby at-gun have).
I agreed that it should be a support-main, not at-main unit. Make vet0 barrage recharge from 80 to 45 then it should work, further adjustments may not be neccessary.
I do like your ideas about smoke barrage and fire mode, but perhaps an ability making su76 a immobile gunposition could be a death sentence, since it doesnot have self-smoke or a lot hp to save its ass from flanking attacks. |
At vet 2 Su-76 get a -25% recharge bonus, tt also gets more range at vet 3. Before even touching the vet bonuses of the SU-76 one has to increase the XP value which is simply too low. The barrage ability is a cost efficient ability.
Not really, that simply show that when MOD team changes the AOE values of the unit they balanced it around vet 0 and not vet 2, (as many other things). Units should simply be balanced in all vet levels.
I am pretty sure one can make vet bonus damage only to autofire not barrage actually.
It seems that the vet requirement of su76 is the same of t70's. But I dont think su76 can vet really fast due to its lacking ablility to chase and kill vehicles. Cant be faster than a t70 at least. |
I was taking about the barrage.
The difference in damage for barrage is substantial at 125%, it one of the cheapest weapons with a kill radius.
It AT capabilities are actually fine and it not only good vs lights.
Sorry that I didnt read your post carefully, but it seems that since last year's update the barrage of su76 is using the same dmg/aoe/scatter/cost data as that of zis3's. It has been a 6 shot zis3 barrage with 80 seconds recharging time then, so vet2 incresed damage has nothing to do with the barrage.
The barrage was free serveral patch before, but now it costs 35 mu, it is not fair for it to have such a long recharging time like howitzers.
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