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Thread: Thoughts on the WINTER PATCH changes30 Jan 2020, 07:58 AM Voted "good changes" (or similar) to everything except UKF-IS changes and ST changes. Buffing IS' moving accuracy isn't going to fix a lot, and if anything, is only going to add to their ability to wipe retreating units. The core issue for the unit is the focus on the "cover bonus" mechanic, which inherently is going to make them either too weak out of cover and balanced in cover, or balanced out of cover and op in cover. This change will (IMO) likely transition the IS' to the later state, which isn't great. All around, this unit just needs a re-work. For the ST, the main issue is the shell not hitting where its supposed to, due to its arc. A few people have stated that the 'solution' is to intentionally over-shoot the target, but this means its (relatively short) range is reduced even more. I'd either like to see the current ST buffed via range (+5 or 10, at most), or re-worked to have two projectiles: its current one (no changes), and a new "world-piercing" shell that costs muni to fire (70 muni?). In: COH2 Balance
Thread: jackson armor nerf30 Jan 2020, 06:29 AM Jump back to quoted post30 Jan 2020, 06:16 AMdistrofio If jacksons are to be still overperforming, then lets remove the snares from riflemen. If jacksons are actually better on the move, then lets give them room to use that "advantage" UKF could survive 6 years without snare, USF surely can do better since its units are much better than UKF ones. Removing core tools isn't a solution - UKF barely survived without them (some would say they didn't survive). And the M36 is undisputed better on the move; simply look through the stats and you'll find no axis vehicle has a 0.75 moving multiplier. The formula for hitting things while on the move is: [Target Size] x [Accuracy at current range] x [moving multiplier] So, for example, the M36 vs. Panther at max (60) range, while moving is: 24 (panther size) x 0.035 (M36 far accuracy) x 0.75 (M36 moving mult) = 63% chance to hit For the Panther vs. M36 at max (50) range, while moving its: 24 (M36 size) x 0.035 (Panther far accuracy) x 0.5 (Panther moving mult) = 42% chance to hit In: COH2 Balance
Thread: jackson armor nerf30 Jan 2020, 05:54 AM Jump back to quoted post30 Jan 2020, 04:21 AMCODGUY All crying Axis players agree the Jackson needs a nerf...so what? Explain to me why you think a 120 fuel, 340 MP (or 140 fuel for the better one) multi-use medium TANK should be able to take on a 145 fuel 400 MP single-purpose TANK DESTROYER? Get a grip. 1. It's pretty much everyone, not just "axis players". The mentality of "sides" (i.e. "axis players" vs "allied players") really doesn't help here - we're all trying to make the game better, since most mid/high level players play all the factions/modes. Yes, there are a few that think 'it's fine', but they're in the minority. 2. No one is asking for the OST or OKW P4 to beat the M36. The problem is that the M36 currently makes everything irrelevant, from dedicated TDs (STUG), to mediums, premium mediums, and even heavies - it beats them all with ease, when in the right hands. This is partly because of its range (60), which means that those tanks can never actually return fire (except for the JP4, all have 50 or less range), but also because of its incredible mobility. Its faster than every axis tank in both acceleration and top speed - with the single exception being the panther, which has an ever so slightly higher top speed (but it has 10 less range). Then, on top of all that, the M36 has a 0.75 moving accuracy modifier, which makes it 50% more accurate than every axis tank in the game when moving. It also has very good base stats (that make sense), such as very high pen at all ranges (220+), high damage (160), and average reload (iirc around 9.7sec?). And of course, it has the bonus of being a USF tank, meaning it can self-repair with its crew, force enemy vehicles to stop targeting it by jumping out, and it can help USF bypass the pop-cap. Any one of those benefits would make it an strong unit; the problem is the combination of all three. The "downside" of the M36 is supposed to be that its a 'glass cannon', but that's irrelevant if it can't be hit 95% of the time (also it has 640hp). The balance team has already seen fit to wet nurse the Axis player base by handing out HMG42s, Panzergrens, Obers, Fallschrimjagers (you know, the stuff that comes WAY too early) along with non-doctrinal heavy Armor like King Tigers and Panthers. If the balance team wants to do that fine. But doing that while nerfing Brits into the ground and now possibly the Jackson, it would be a laughably biased move. If you're having trouble with MG42s, PGrens and Obers; post some replays. I've offered many times to help look through them, since neither of these units should be a problem - and I'm sure others would help, too. As for Falls, they've lost their faust in this test-patch, so they'll finally be reasonable. Still very powerful against infantry, but hopeless against any vehicles. USF and Sov are currently the two strongest factions in the game, followed by OKW, with OST and UKF in 4th and 5th respectively. This is pretty evident from both player experience, as well as the recent WCS tournament. Some of the things I've read here recently just make me cringe. Some of you people think a Puma should counter a Jackson. Seriously, WTF? I'm assuming you're talking about my posts from several weeks ago? If so, you've misread or misunderstood them; but I'll summarize again: The puma shouldn't counter an M36 The puma shouldn't equal an M36 The puma should be able to temporarily ward off an M36 The Jackson is the only...ONLY unit USF has outside of a doctrine that truly excels. I don't think anyone would agree with this. USF has a bunch of incredibly strong and versatile units; and the the problem isn't that the M36 excels, its the degree to which it excels. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Winter balance (1/2020) feedback USF29 Jan 2020, 20:04 PM Not sure why it took this long to get individual threads for the patch, but it's a good idea to have them. For USF, the current state of the M36 has been heavily criticized for months, if not longer, and there's nothing to address either it, nor its counters. Similarly, the changes to the Scott/Pak Howie a while back made them RNG-wiping machines (I guess that's better than consistent wiping machines); they're still annoying to deal with, but now they;re also annoying to use (due to the RNG). The grenade change seems reasonable, although a little unasked for. 50MP isn't going to make a huge difference, so I don't see this making USF that much better, but leaving them at 150mp also wasn't causing too many issues. I'm not sure where this came from, so it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Jump back to quoted post29 Jan 2020, 19:03 PMKubelecer USF is the most ammo starved faction in the game not accounting for commanders, and there's just little room to get nades, especially considering the tech delays your light vehicle and infantry upgrades. The fuel cost needs a look or the nade cost itself. USF is supposed to have smoke grenades as their counter to MGs earlygame, yet it's an annoying sidetech with a really steep cost. Not to mention only REs have smokes now. Against good players rifleman nades are just a waste of ammo unless used on MGs in buildings. 1 nade = half a BAR, that also requires fuel to unlock. I'd argue that OST is the most muni-starved faction, at least early/mid game. Being even vaguely useful with them requires dumping tons of muni: fausts/MG42-AP, since AT isn't available until later, while allied LVs are available quite early Rifle-nades, which while they have more range, have less AoE LMG42, which is required for Grens to be viable mid/late Med-Bunker, which is a mandatory upgrade (unless an OKW player goes med-truck) Mines, Sweepers, flamers, flame-HT, schrecks, etc. are all early/mid muni-sinks as well. Cluster bombs were really fast, but really not that good in my experience, they didn't wipe that much due to their nature of not hitting the same spot twice. 130 ammo for a forced retreat and a few models was debatable. Compared to light artillery for ost that is also extremely fast, their use was limited. Maybe make clusterbombs actually mines like in the campaign? The problem with clusters were that they deleted everything 'soft' unless the enemy player had perfect reaction time, since they hit the entire area at the same time. This was extremely problematic for team-weapons, since often their pack-up would take about as long as it took for the clusters to fall; this was extremely punishing for OST. In: Lobby
Thread: COH2 winter balance mod - discussion28 Jan 2020, 20:59 PM Jump back to quoted post28 Jan 2020, 18:13 PMStug life that's the pre 2015 it had awfull pen back then, it could not even pen a p4 reliably Yea, I took into account the lower pen when doing the calculations. Jump back to quoted post28 Jan 2020, 20:34 PMKatitof Noobs aren't taken into account when it comes to balancing, so this isn't argument. It's not "noobs", it's core design. OST relies much more heavily on MGs than any other faction, and Grens combine the smallest mainline squad size with the "slowest" (setup time, rotation speed, etc.) mainline upgrade (LMG42). Their vulnerability to indirect fire has been made pretty clear with the past (and current) state of the USF Pak-Howie and Scott. You can't play OST without being static for some period of time, without relying on specific docs. Why? Allies didn't get mobility buffs when turbomortar reigned supreme, in fact opposite happened, they had their mobility lowered by a lot by increasing setup times and removing mobility abilities. The irony, given opposite happened to allied team weapons. Something being imbalanced in the past doesn't justify making things imbalanced in the present. The idea is to make the game better for everyone, not to get "revenge" for past mistakes. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: COH2 winter balance mod - discussion28 Jan 2020, 17:06 PM Jump back to quoted post28 Jan 2020, 12:53 PMStug life the old m36 has 200 damage not 240 tho I thought so too, but the "March 31st 2015 Update" (Post #71, here) states: M36 Jackson The Jackson had issues dealing damage consistently due to its lower penetration. Our team has chosen to reduce the damage dealt by the M36 while also increasing the penetration; two changes we feel will offset each other in an ideal way. This will allow for the Jackson to retain its current role while also being a more consistent tank destroyer. This is an indirect buff to Wehrmacht Tier 3, in which every tank was hard countered by the Jackson in its current form. Damage reduced from 240 to 200 Penetration increased from 160 / 180 / 200 to 200 / 220 /240 AP rounds penetration increased from 220 / 250 / 280 to 240 / 270 / 300 It's possible that the notes are incorrect, since there are a few times where the same notes are made multiple times in a row, but I can't be sure. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: COH2 winter balance mod - discussion28 Jan 2020, 06:25 AM Jump back to quoted post28 Jan 2020, 01:50 AMelchino7 If you have something strong, then you nerf it and then you buff it to lower levels than in initial state, is it powercreep at all? Let's "nerf" every faction to release levels. You would want the current so called "power creep" back in less than a week. I looked into that - specifically for some recurring problem units: the M36, T70, Panther, and Infantry Sections. Below is a change log for 'from release' to 'current live version'. While I do think there's been some base stat power-creep, its less than I was expecting (or at least, less obvious). It also turns out its fairly complicated. At face value, some of these look pretty neutral, but there's some interesting details. For example, let's pretend the "Old" and "New" M36s were facing a 'current version' of OKW's Puma, P4, Panther and KT. Edit: It was pointed out that I forgot to factor in accuracy. The following numbers have been updated, but still refer to old and new versions of the M36. I've also had to update the conclusion. vs. Puma Old: 100% pen x 63% hit chance = 63% chance to damage x 240dmg = 151.2dmg per hit = 3 hits - 1 reload = 2x 7.285s = 14.57sec New: 100% pen x 63% hit chance = 63% chance to damage x 160dmg = 100.8dmg per hit = 4 hits - 1 reload = 3x 6.25s = 18.75sec Vs. OKW-P4 Old: 68.4% pen x 77% hit chance = 52.67% chance to damage x 240dmg = 126.4 per hit = 6 hits - 1 reload = 5 x 7.285s = 36.425sec New: 94.0% pen x 77% hit chance = 72.38% chance to damage x 160dmg = 115.8 per hit = 6 hits - 1 reload = 5 x 6.25s = 31.25sec Vs. Panther Old: 61.5% pen x 84% hit chance = 51.66% chance to damage x 240dmg = 124.0 per hit = 8 hits -1 reload = 8 x 7.285s = 58.28sec New: 84.6% pen x 84% hit chance = 71.06% chance to damage x 160dmg = 113.7 per hit = 9 hits -1 reload = 8 x 6.25s = 50.00sec Vs. KT Old: 42.66% pen x 91% hit chance = 38.82% chance to damage x 240dmg = 93.2 per hit = 14 hits - 1 reload = 14 x 7.285s = 101.99sec New: 58.66% pen x 91% hit chance = 55.38% chance to damage x 160dmg = 88.6 per hit = 15 hits - 1 reload = 15 x 6.25s = 93.75sec Except for against extremely fragile opponents, the M36 has become more powerful and it has also gained: +50% build speed (90s to 60s) +20% acceleration (2.5 to 3) +33% HP (480 to 640) while only receiving a nerf to its vet 3 reload bonus (from +30% to 15%). Jump back to quoted post28 Jan 2020, 05:47 AMZeroZeroNi Ahh... Just try it see what happens. OST and OKW have panthers so they can handle it. In 1v1 this might work, but in every other mode it would be OP. Multiple "Pershings" backed by SU85s and M36s, and of course, IS' blobs. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Patch for OST?28 Jan 2020, 00:06 AM Jump back to quoted post27 Jan 2020, 23:52 PMVipper Simply nerf allied TDs. They over perform vs PzIV They over perform vs T4 units They over performed vs Tiger in team games and that lead to buffing to super heavies and creating the current mess. I don't think that would actually fix the problem, though. Let's assume we nerfed allied 60-range TDs (M36/SU85/FF) by a decent amount: 1. The panther is still really expensive, and the added HP/Armor isn't really needed now. Instead, the STUG is now more viable, especially due to its higher DPS and range than the panther. Additionally, if you do save up the 490mp/180f (iirc), you might as well save the extra 190mp/50f and get a Tiger, as that's just a much stronger unit. 2. The brummbar is still going to impose a heavy micro-tax, and even then, it's only really good against blobbers. The P4 and Ostwind are simply better choices, since they're cheaper, arrive earlier, and don't require manually firing every shot. Also, axis doesn't need a "bunker buster", either. 3. The P.Werfer is still going to be situational. It's good against static infantry and support weapons, but because the rockets always take a long time to hit, using it against moving infantry is tricky; you can't use it point-blank like a katyusha or caliope. This one also wouldn't change (at all) with a TD nerf. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: COH2 winter balance mod - discussion27 Jan 2020, 23:12 PM Jump back to quoted post27 Jan 2020, 22:39 PMKatitof PQ doesn't work for relic for over half a decade, let it go already. It's not necessarily a bad idea though, and I think it would still be "ideal" if it could be implemented; but I agree, it's way too late for that 'benchmark' to come back. That said, continuous power-creep is not a solution. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: Patch for OST?27 Jan 2020, 23:10 PM Jump back to quoted post27 Jan 2020, 21:58 PMSander93 There are some changes being cooked up, but nothing definitive yet so not much to comment on right now. There aren't many straightforward buffs because of how strong Ostheer currently is in teamgames, so progress is slow because every change has to be very well thought out. Thanks for the info; it's good to know that something is being worked on, even if it might take some time. Like I've said before, I can see how 'fixing' OST is going to be tricky - for example, I think most will agree that T4 needs to become "more viable", but I've yet to see any suggestions that could actually end up working well. In: COH2 Gameplay