Jackson is OP by necessity of being able to counter mediums and heavies.
Exactly; which is why the M36 needs to be "Split" into 2 units - one coming earlier, and better suited against mediums, and the other later and better against heavies.
"OP By necessity" isn't good game design, or justification for a unit being OP.
But Panther is exactly in the same position and both units need to be matched in that matter
Except the panther isn't the go-to medium counter; that's all of OST's other AT solutions (Stug, P4, Schrecks, Pak40). The panther only shows up later in the game (provided its an even game) when it's going to be facing heavies.
Enough to see Riflemen being buffed.
And many people would consider that to be a mistake, as is evident by the WCS stats. |
It's a fast StuG with a turret, AP rounds and Vet 0 blitz. They buffed the shit out of it to make it doctrinally worth it.
I don't think USF needs a nondoctrinal M10. I think they just need their cheaper, 480 HP Jackson back.
That'd make it positionally counterable (fragile and so loses a close range fight like the Firefly), less dominating in builds (at 125 FU, it's cheaper to get as and when you need it), and give USF's doctrinal armour more room to breathe (the E8, M4C and M10 would then be better in close range battles).
Give the Firefly a similar fuel cut and you're golden. Stick the cut fuel back on the Tulip upgrade if Tulips are a problem.
I wasn't aware of the stats on those two abilities - that could cause some problems. However, they are adjustable.
As for the "480hp M36", as Elchino7 pointed out before, this is basically impossible due to team-games. At 480hp, they can be '3-shot' by heavy TDs which are common in team games, making the unit almost unusable. It also doesn't address the issue of USF going from "zero" to "Counter everything" in a single unit, or force them to diversify their resources/pop; the M36 would still need to be the counter to everything.
Remove war speed or whatever its called
increase its price by atleast 20 fuel. Its currently 80 iirc?
the m10 has no problem to pen any ostheer t3 vehicle, is faster, can crush and is cheap enough to spam or trade up with evrything that isnt a 222.
You will never kill any decent played m10 with a stug that doesnt hit a mine, it gets outclassed in pretty much every way possible
I highly doubt that youd be able to adjust the m10 for the standart usf tech tree, there are endless combinations with several usf commanders that i dont even want to think about.
Pershing with m10 spam would be my first thought
These are all good points, so supposed we made the following adjustments:
Abilities: 'Flanking Speed' removed, AP Reload from 4-4.5 to 4.5-5
Cost: 300mp/80f -> 300mp/100f (The guide on here incorrectly lists the price as 270mp/90f instead of 300mp/80f.)
Movement Speed: 7 to 6.2
Movement Accel: 3.2 to 2.2
Those changes should address the mobility issue, with it now being comparable to a P4, while also addressing the investment/trade issue.
|
Again, you just cant put the m10 without massive nerf or price increase into the tech tree... unless you want to completly kill ostheer in 1v1
Ok, let's say we go with the M8 Scott <=> M10 swap, what changes would you want to see to the M10 to make it work? To me, the M10 seems comparable to the StuG-G in terms of stats. I can see how the price might be a little low, but that is adjustable.
|
This discussion isn't going to be productive if previous posts are ignored. Most of these complaints/comments have been addressed pages ago.
Exactly. Axis fans just want easy game. When they could crush the USF from panthers and tigers, trample on the enemy like an avalanche. But Jackson does not allow this, although it has very weak armor. They also want to remove accuracy in movement, although this is a feature of all USF tanks. Bad armor, Poor health, but good accuracy in movement.
There is not even a guarantee that in the battle Jackson vs Panzer 4, the M36 will win.
Also why do we need the P4 to perform well vs Jackson? P4 can also bleed man power vs infantry as well. Multi role tank vs hard counter TD?
What's wrong with Jackson's overwhelming P4?
Jackson is a TD and a more expensive unit than the P4
Honestly the best idea i have seen inside the dumbsterfires that are Allied TD forums. Make M36 less abusive against P4 but allow USF to survive against heavy Axis armour while giving USF reliable Anti-medium weapons that isnt the jackson.
This is a pretty good 'summary' of the problem; the M36 needs to not be the "anti-everything" solution, and instead specialize as the "anti-heavy" TD, with something else filling the roll of "anti-medium".
One idea I've been thinking of lately is swapping the M8A1 "Scott" with the M10 in the Armor Company, and then drastically increasing the price on the M36 (ex. 460mp/165f). This could fix the "overlap" between the Scott and Pak-Howie (and lower their ubiquity, at least a bit), give USF an Intermediate AT source similar to a StuG-G, and would make M36 spam less viable.
That's my suggestion.
My proposal would be to Add the M10 to the USF tech tree to fight medium spam
Nerf the Jackson’s range to 50, and give it a toggle ability to increase its range at the cost of movement speed, sort of like the SU85, maybe call it take aim?
This would allow the Jackson to focus on being a heavy killer as it won’t have to fight medium spam, as the M10 could fill that void
The toggle would allow the Jackson to remain mobile while reducing its ability kite at max range, which is the OP thing about it, and the toggle goes with the USF theme of versatility
This could also be an interesting implementation of a similar idea.
Once again, the problem isn't that the M36 can beat a P4 - that actually makes sense. The problem is that the M36 can counter literally everything efficiently. That means USF goes from no tanks to counter everything armored in one tech level and one unit. This is really, really bad design, as it means there's nothing to "spread out" USF resource invesetment.
OST for example, almost always goes T3 -> T4, which means a fair amount of resources and pop are tied up in StuG-Gs, P4s and Ostwinds; while these are good units, they're not that good against late-game heavies, like Comets, IS2s, ISU-152s, and so on. Even against late-game TDs like the SU85, they struggle.
This means that OST needs to transition to T4 (or call-ins), such as Panthers, Tigers and Eles - except they've all been delayed by the T3 investments (either due to resources or pop availability). The only way to 'avoid' this problem is by skipping T3, but that leaves OST extremely vulnerable - there's clearly an opportunity cost.
USF doesn't have this:
1. Get Major tech
2. Build M36s
3. Counter everything armored, scale infinitely
There's no opportunity cost, no trade-off; nothing.
This is why it's been suggested (Multiple times, in the above quotes) to make the M10 non-doc, and increase the M36 cost dramatically (or maybe even put it behind more tech). It means that a USF player is going to have to invest in M10s first, which don't scale infinitely into late-game. The player will need to decide between getting 'mobile AT' now, or waiting (and staying vulnerable) until M36s become available later.
|
|
What would this solve, though?
Right now T3 is "fine" and T4 is "bad" (too situational). Swapping the P4 for the P.Werfer makes T3 worse, which isn't needed, and makes the P4 come out far too late in a normal build order.
The only way I could see this working is if the StuG-G was buffed a lot with zero price increase, as it would need to take over all of the mobile AT roles that the P4 provided (such as countering LVs), but it needs to do so as a case-mate TD. |
M36 weakness is everywhere else as USF late game is still dependent on crutch units as per original design.
Yea, that's why there's been a bunch of suggestions to change this; such as making the M10 non-doc. |
Only at option for USF is jackson. So nerfing jackson means killing whole USF. Please be honest about USF. All you want is no late game USF. Just confess it.
That doesn't seem to be the case; there's been a bunch of requests and suggestions that give USF an alternative "medium TD".
Honestly the best idea i have seen inside the dumbsterfires that are Allied TD forums. Make M36 less abusive against P4 but allow USF to survive against heavy Axis armour while giving USF reliable Anti-medium weapons that isnt the jackson.
This is a pretty good 'summary' of the problem; the M36 needs to not be the "anti-everything" solution, and instead specialize as the "anti-heavy" TD, with something else filling the roll of "anti-medium".
One idea I've been thinking of lately is swapping the M8A1 "Scott" with the M10 in the Armor Company, and then drastically increasing the price on the M36 (ex. 460mp/165f). This could fix the "overlap" between the Scott and Pak-Howie (and lower their ubiquity, at least a bit), give USF an Intermediate AT source similar to a StuG-G, and would make M36 spam less viable.
That's my suggestion.
My proposal would be to Add the M10 to the USF tech tree to fight medium spam
Nerf the Jackson’s range to 50, and give it a toggle ability to increase its range at the cost of movement speed, sort of like the SU85, maybe call it take aim?
This would allow the Jackson to focus on being a heavy killer as it won’t have to fight medium spam, as the M10 could fill that void
The toggle would allow the Jackson to remain mobile while reducing its ability kite at max range, which is the OP thing about it, and the toggle goes with the USF theme of versatility
This could also be an interesting implementation of a similar idea.
|
Well it’s risk vs reward, and my point is the M36 does not make the Panzer IV irrelevant whatsoever if the P4 is used properly and the tables can be turned on the M36.
One last thing to note is you can’t just assume your opponent will always micro properly and catching him during a moment of chaos can lead to crucial mistakes from him. You should also be prepared to bail if things go against you, which is where blitz and smoke come in extremely handy, but again this is all skill based.
If you need to combine that many factors, in addition to luck (them not seeing/hearing you), as well as relying on the opponent not micro'ing properly, to just get a chance at destroying an M36 with a P4, then I'd consider that the P4 is made irrelevant by the M36.
When comparing units, they need to either be on equal ground, or have their ground 'equalized' by compensating price with skill.
|
Mainly from a 1v1 perspective, this is a question of skill and timing.
Skill because this is a complicated assault to pull off. You need to find a hole in the enemy line, sweep for mines and spot (both with sweeper pio squad) and carefully bring full speed P4s through the hole to engage a single Jackson, kill it within 1 reload cycle (1st two shots from each P4), then pop smoke if they have it and blitz back to their lines.
The second question is timing. I like to make counterpushes when the opponent is attacking me because then their micro is focused on other engagements allowing me to get a few crucial seconds unnoticed where I gang up on an enemy tank before retreating.
All that work, and if the USF player has a single unit that spots your approaching Pio or P4s it doesn't work; and/or you lose a P4 (or more). It also doesn't prevent the USF player from hearing your P4s or seeing objects being broken through the FoW,
|
Do you even play the game or do you look at spreadsheets all day?
Usually a 10+ games a week, so yes, I do play the game a fair bit.
It's quite easy to get in range of an enemy tank if you scout properly, there really aren't that many places where you can find them, usually behind the main enemy line. If you make a good flank with a minesweeper Pioneer it's really not that difficult, or if you have recon or stormtroopers or a sniper for scouting.
As OKW you have the IR HT, JLI, smoke recon and the always hilarious Jagdpanzer camo and hold fire approach.
Seriously, M36s don't have 60 sight, if you play your cards properly you can easily assault them.
As for the moving accuracy, I really don't give a damn since I can micro them to stop before firing and move afterwards so it's not an issue.
This doesn't actually address my question.
Unless the M36(s) has an undefended flank (not happening on most 2v2 maps), the USF player is going to see the P4 coming; there's always an RE squad, rifle squad, or something on or near the flanks for this exact reason. Even if you know where the M36s are, and the USF player doesn't see your scout, you need to (somehow) get your P4s within 40 range of the M36s without the USF noticing. If they're paying attention, they'll almost always hear the P4 or see it breaking some objects; good players aren't surprised by flanking tanks.
JP4s can creep forward using cloak, but even two of them are only going to drop a single M36 to 50% HP after breaking stealth. That gives the USF player more than enough time to back away.
As for moving accuracy, it's just another thing in the M36s favor. Every time you hit "stop" on your P4, the M36 gets slightly further away. The USF player also doesn't have to keep track of the reload time, so that means less micro tax for them, too. That gives them the opportunity to (more easily) bring an ATG, Bazooka squad, or Rifle-AT grenade into the fight.
|
Doomlord52
Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
