Penals are weak (no armor). For a unit that cost 360mp that's a big problem. I found them mainly useful in going against grenadiers. 1 on 1 they will beat the grenadiers, but at what cost?
building required
slow build time
360mp
no AT
no armor
Aside from that their only useful feature is the satchel charge, but good luck using that without getting your guys killed, lol.
> building required -- yeah, but you can build M3A1 and snipers from the same building both of which can be useful in a variety of situations at different stages of the game, specially snipers.
Everything else is true though. Still as mentioned earlier i think that since penals lack armour they are better used as base of fire units, in cover, to support an advance. |
Id advise against Flamer on Penals. Save that for your CEs or put the Muni into mines.
The native SVT is good, and, personally, I find the chance of a Flamer explosion to be a bad risk. Flamer short range is also counter-productive to SVTs excellent ranged fire.
I think your 3xCons 1xPenals to be the best option. Gives your force a central, stronger, element. But you really do still need the Cons for early AT.
After the first Penal you can Doctrine for more specialised infantry.
Suggestion:
On a design/balance level, Id argue for replacing the Flamer upgrade with a PTSR upgrade.
-This would open up Sov non-doctrinal infantry reliance.
-Doesnt overshadow Guards, because Guards still have 1.5 armor and DT upgrade.
-Puts Penals at their appropriate "half-step" position as basically paying MP for non-doctrinal G43 level DPS.
The PTSR upgrade laterally gives Sov some more needed Infantry AT diversity (WITHOUT GUARD), is intuitive with their range, and helps match asymmetrically against PGren Shrek option.
According to coh2 stats SVT close/far range DPS are 5.725/1.497 compared to gren Kar-98k 3.803/1.027, which means that penals "out-pds" grens at 1.45-1.50 ration both in close and far ranges. However penals don't have a lot of health, so upgrading them with a flamer and charging the enemy position does feel a bit risky. Flanking with them, around a hedge for example feels like it can work out fine.
On the other hand using penals like you suggest without the flamer and sticking them into cover for frontal base-of-fire support does have its merits since they do cost more to reinforce (disregarding the Merge ability for now). I think i will try that out when i will have a chance.
I agree that some soft-AT capability would've been a better upgrade. Alternatively offensive G43-suppression-like ability from CoH would also fit nicely if used for squad's base-of-fire role especially considering that both rifles are similar semi-automatics. In fact i am liking this possibility more than a soft-AT, since soviets do lack BAR-like or G43-like offensive suppression in my opinion.
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I was experimenting with integrating soviet penal troops into early game the other day. I really like their DPS output and vet scaling so this is what i've tried.
1. 2 conscripts, special rifle command, 2 penal troops. I found this to be a suicide build order on smaller maps like Langres and Kholodny. There is a huge gap when you only have two conscripts on the field while building special rifle command. Aggressive Ostheer player can take advantage of it and chase you completely off the map locking you down with a couple of MGs. On bigger maps like Moscow this can work although you really open yourself up to early flamer HT.
2. 3 conscripts, 1 penal squad. This worked out much better for me. I managed to have a decent field presence while one penal squad upgraded with flamers became a great flanking unit to quickly de-crew MGs and AT guns, dislodge units from buildings, etc. There is still a problem of a flamer HT rush which is (at least for me) is problematic to deal with when you only have AT nades. I tried two transitions from this:
2.1. T3. I tried rushing to T70 after getting infantry dominance in the early game. T70 still can come relatively quick to chase off the flamer HT. All in all i found this to be a great combination to counter heavy ostheer T2 play, especially if you get a 120 mil mortar. However, i have lost one game and nearly lost another one with this transition when ostheer player decided to go for T3 instead. I don't know if this was a calculated effort on his part, but a P4 was a killer move.
2.2. T4. This worked out a lot better. Not as good VS heavy ostheer T2, but definitely much safer.
Has anybody else experimented with penal squads? What are your impressions? |
What position were your ZiS guns in initially as the engagement started? If they were "flush" or parallel with each other and relatively close together (less than a screen length away), the Panther will usually win.
Ideally you'd be in a somewhat inverted 'V' formation, with the AT guns pointed at the apex of the 'V'. Additionally, if your position and map allow it, the ZiS guns should be slightly stepped or stacked, meaning that one is closer to the front lines than the other. There are a few reasons behind this: One, if the first ZiS gets engaged and overwhelmed, the second one can retreat in relative safety. Two, when the first ZiS engages, the second can be in a position to better get rear shots. The latter is especially necessary against a Panther. They may not be used much nor have the clout they did in CoH1, but they have excellent armor and are difficult to take out regardless.
Even an 'I' formation with 2 ZiS guns can be fairly effective, particularly if that's the only formation the terrain allows.
Also, I'd suggest mines. The Soviets have a nice CoH1-esque, all-in-one type of mine which I've found necessary for combat involving ZiS guns. Even as Ostheer I tend to throw down at least one Teller mine in front of a PaK that I may have built due to the necessity for AT and the lack of fuel for a tank. Obviously if it's a choice between mines (which don't have a guarantee of ever going off on the correct unit, or at all if nothing touches them) and an AT nade, the AT nade wins.
Besides that, I'd simply echo Kurt Jäger over there: Conscripts 'cause of the AT nade, Shocks 'cause of the smoke nade and flank protection. Throw that smoke nade right behind or on your ZiS, especially if that Panther is charging forward and you're realizing quickly that it's gonna bone your crew.
It has to be said that AT guns are really at their highest efficacy when they cover a narrow passage and have one or two open, secured retreat paths. If they need to be used in an open area, it's a good idea to try and find some wall/tank carcass/shack to set them next to just to keep options open and making the possible circle strafes less effective. When in doubt, mine the flanks.
Quick summary of the above: Always support AT guns with a couple of squads, use AT nades and smoke nades often, mines mines mines, and position your AT guns so they can assist and augment each other.
People mentioned gun positioning several times. In the second scenario with a panther i had one gun moved slightly back and facing forward and the other gun moved forward and to the side facing a portion of the left flank.
Panther was going right where i needed it to so that both guns had a good shot. It was also AT-naded very early but still managed to move up to the second gun and strated circling it. I was repositioning the first gun to cover the second one. Although maybe those two guns still were positioned a bit too close.
The problem is my guns did fire a lot of shots at the panther and i had one covering the other but most shots either pinged or did very little damage. And in the first scenario with the flakpanzer i was just awestruck at how easily the tank could just ride up to the gun while it took at least 3 shots at it, decrew it completely and get away with at least half health left.
In any case thanks for the tips on mines and smoke, i had neither and they could have indeed helped. I will try that out next time. |
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[double post removed] |
That 2nd scenario didn't sound that bad. You could've just pushed forward and gained ground as the panther backed out, or even chased with your own tank. It's not a shock unit, you really need combined arms and it adds all up.
Panther didn't back out. It limped past the guns and proceeded to blast them while i was trying to reposition. |
Here is what I do/ my build order:
Doctrine: Anti Infantry Tactics (Very important)
Build:
Early Game
3x Conscripts
1x Engineer (Mainly for building, but can upgrade both with flamers)
1x Maxim or Mortar (For bunkers)
1x Shock troops
Mid Game
1x ZiS anti tank
2-3x T34
1x Shock troops
Late Game
KV - If appropriate, this thing wrecks!
Katuysha - If appropriate.
Incendiary artillery
With this build, the ZiS should always be supported by either a T34 or a Conscript squad or two. This way if the Panzer or Ostwind is stupid enough to 'rush' the ZiS it will receive a damaged engine (Anti tank grenade) and at least one shot to the front. The T34 can then sweep up and take out the trash.
But honestly, try out the build. I've had a lot of success with it. I don't even need to go near the clown cars.
P.S The ZiS and T34's are essential to this build, if needed build more of them! (Also call in Shock Troops as needed.)
Thanks but i was thinking more of a no-fuel emergency AT option. If the game goes well i usually do have enough T3 or T4 tanks to support the AT gun. If however i am in a position when i don't have enough fuel to get the SU85 but i do have tons of MP it seems like i have no reliable AT when facing ostheer T3 even with proper infantry support.
But i see what you mean - in ideal situation i need a couple of tanks and AT nades to make this work. |
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I was playing yesterday and had two hilarious moments with ZiS AT gun.
1) ZiS gun full health, full crew, no vet. Flakpanzer full health no vet, rolled from the front all the way from the maximum distance up to point-blank range of the gun and killed the crew suffering about 40% damage itself. Gun had no infantry support because conscripts were forced out previously but flakpanzer had no support either.
2) 2 ZiS guns, full health, full crew, no vet and with 2 conscript squads supporting took about 5 shots each at a fresh panther with a damaged engine from at grenade. Panther managed to limp past both guns taking about 30% damage the whole time.
Both tanks were moving without the road bonus, no blitzkrieg. So it seems like soviets currently have no manpower-only AT option that can reliably handle even Ostheer T3 or am i just using my ZiS guns in a wrong way? If that is the case what is the proper way to use the gun?
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Didn't the new patch fix the issues you listed?
Game became a bit more responsive, yes. It's the unstable performance and really long black screen times before the start of the game that make it not fun for me. But i am sure it will be fixed in the future. |
rhe Men of War series like coh but more realistic i think
Thanks, i'll check that out. |
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