How do i use ZiS AT gun currectly

I was playing yesterday and had two hilarious moments with ZiS AT gun.

1) ZiS gun full health, full crew, no vet. Flakpanzer full health no vet, rolled from the front all the way from the maximum distance up to point-blank range of the gun and killed the crew suffering about 40% damage itself. Gun had no infantry support because conscripts were forced out previously but flakpanzer had no support either.

2) 2 ZiS guns, full health, full crew, no vet and with 2 conscript squads supporting took about 5 shots each at a fresh panther with a damaged engine from at grenade. Panther managed to limp past both guns taking about 30% damage the whole time.

Both tanks were moving without the road bonus, no blitzkrieg. So it seems like soviets currently have no manpower-only AT option that can reliably handle even Ostheer T3 or am i just using my ZiS guns in a wrong way? If that is the case what is the proper way to use the gun?

Here is what I do/ my build order:

Doctrine: Anti Infantry Tactics (Very important)

Build:
Early Game
3x Conscripts
1x Engineer (Mainly for building, but can upgrade both with flamers)
1x Maxim or Mortar (For bunkers)
1x Shock troops
Mid Game
1x ZiS anti tank
2-3x T34
1x Shock troops
Late Game
KV - If appropriate, this thing wrecks!
Katuysha - If appropriate.
Incendiary artillery

With this build, the ZiS should always be supported by either a T34 or a Conscript squad or two. This way if the Panzer or Ostwind is stupid enough to 'rush' the ZiS it will receive a damaged engine (Anti tank grenade) and at least one shot to the front. The T34 can then sweep up and take out the trash.

But honestly, try out the build. I've had a lot of success with it. I don't even need to go near the clown cars.

P.S The ZiS and T34's are essential to this build, if needed build more of them! (Also call in Shock Troops as needed.)

That 2nd scenario didn't sound that bad. You could've just pushed forward and gained ground as the panther backed out, or even chased with your own tank. It's not a shock unit, you really need combined arms and it adds all up.

Here is what I do/ my build order:

Doctrine: Anti Infantry Tactics (Very important)

Build:
Early Game
3x Conscripts
1x Engineer (Mainly for building, but can upgrade both with flamers)
1x Maxim or Mortar (For bunkers)
1x Shock troops
Mid Game
1x ZiS anti tank
2-3x T34
1x Shock troops
Late Game
KV - If appropriate, this thing wrecks!
Katuysha - If appropriate.
Incendiary artillery

With this build, the ZiS should always be supported by either a T34 or a Conscript squad or two. This way if the Panzer or Ostwind is stupid enough to 'rush' the ZiS it will receive a damaged engine (Anti tank grenade) and at least one shot to the front. The T34 can then sweep up and take out the trash.

But honestly, try out the build. I've had a lot of success with it. I don't even need to go near the clown cars.

P.S The ZiS and T34's are essential to this build, if needed build more of them! (Also call in Shock Troops as needed.)

Thanks but i was thinking more of a no-fuel emergency AT option. If the game goes well i usually do have enough T3 or T4 tanks to support the AT gun. If however i am in a position when i don't have enough fuel to get the SU85 but i do have tons of MP it seems like i have no reliable AT when facing ostheer T3 even with proper infantry support.

But i see what you mean - in ideal situation i need a couple of tanks and AT nades to make this work.

That 2nd scenario didn't sound that bad. You could've just pushed forward and gained ground as the panther backed out, or even chased with your own tank. It's not a shock unit, you really need combined arms and it adds all up.

Panther didn't back out. It limped past the guns and proceeded to blast them while i was trying to reposition.

That situation could have been fixed by not putting your AT guns next to each other on a line.

Instead place them in a staggered formation so that if one gun is overrun the other one can shoot the enemy while the out-of-position gun is turned around.

Simonp2 is correct. You also want AT nades around to slow stuff near AT guns. The ZiS isn't much of a counter to the Ostwind, I admit (only marginally better than a PAK vs. a KV-8) and will need some support to deal with one.

Panther didn't back out. It limped past the guns and proceeded to blast them while i was trying to reposition.

What position were your ZiS guns in initially as the engagement started? If they were "flush" or parallel with each other and relatively close together (less than a screen length away), the Panther will usually win.

Ideally you'd be in a somewhat inverted 'V' formation, with the AT guns pointed at the apex of the 'V'. Additionally, if your position and map allow it, the ZiS guns should be slightly stepped or stacked, meaning that one is closer to the front lines than the other. There are a few reasons behind this: One, if the first ZiS gets engaged and overwhelmed, the second one can retreat in relative safety. Two, when the first ZiS engages, the second can be in a position to better get rear shots. The latter is especially necessary against a Panther. They may not be used much nor have the clout they did in CoH1, but they have excellent armor and are difficult to take out regardless.

Even an 'I' formation with 2 ZiS guns can be fairly effective, particularly if that's the only formation the terrain allows.

Also, I'd suggest mines. The Soviets have a nice CoH1-esque, all-in-one type of mine which I've found necessary for combat involving ZiS guns. Even as Ostheer I tend to throw down at least one Teller mine in front of a PaK that I may have built due to the necessity for AT and the lack of fuel for a tank. Obviously if it's a choice between mines (which don't have a guarantee of ever going off on the correct unit, or at all if nothing touches them) and an AT nade, the AT nade wins.

Besides that, I'd simply echo Kurt Jäger over there: Conscripts 'cause of the AT nade, Shocks 'cause of the smoke nade and flank protection. Throw that smoke nade right behind or on your ZiS, especially if that Panther is charging forward and you're realizing quickly that it's gonna bone your crew.

It has to be said that AT guns are really at their highest efficacy when they cover a narrow passage and have one or two open, secured retreat paths. If they need to be used in an open area, it's a good idea to try and find some wall/tank carcass/shack to set them next to just to keep options open and making the possible circle strafes less effective. When in doubt, mine the flanks.

Quick summary of the above: Always support AT guns with a couple of squads, use AT nades and smoke nades often, mines mines mines, and position your AT guns so they can assist and augment each other.

[double post removed]

What position were your ZiS guns in initially as the engagement started? If they were "flush" or parallel with each other and relatively close together (less than a screen length away), the Panther will usually win.

Ideally you'd be in a somewhat inverted 'V' formation, with the AT guns pointed at the apex of the 'V'. Additionally, if your position and map allow it, the ZiS guns should be slightly stepped or stacked, meaning that one is closer to the front lines than the other. There are a few reasons behind this: One, if the first ZiS gets engaged and overwhelmed, the second one can retreat in relative safety. Two, when the first ZiS engages, the second can be in a position to better get rear shots. The latter is especially necessary against a Panther. They may not be used much nor have the clout they did in CoH1, but they have excellent armor and are difficult to take out regardless.

Even an 'I' formation with 2 ZiS guns can be fairly effective, particularly if that's the only formation the terrain allows.

Also, I'd suggest mines. The Soviets have a nice CoH1-esque, all-in-one type of mine which I've found necessary for combat involving ZiS guns. Even as Ostheer I tend to throw down at least one Teller mine in front of a PaK that I may have built due to the necessity for AT and the lack of fuel for a tank. Obviously if it's a choice between mines (which don't have a guarantee of ever going off on the correct unit, or at all if nothing touches them) and an AT nade, the AT nade wins.

Besides that, I'd simply echo Kurt Jäger over there: Conscripts 'cause of the AT nade, Shocks 'cause of the smoke nade and flank protection. Throw that smoke nade right behind or on your ZiS, especially if that Panther is charging forward and you're realizing quickly that it's gonna bone your crew.

It has to be said that AT guns are really at their highest efficacy when they cover a narrow passage and have one or two open, secured retreat paths. If they need to be used in an open area, it's a good idea to try and find some wall/tank carcass/shack to set them next to just to keep options open and making the possible circle strafes less effective. When in doubt, mine the flanks.

Quick summary of the above: Always support AT guns with a couple of squads, use AT nades and smoke nades often, mines mines mines, and position your AT guns so they can assist and augment each other.

People mentioned gun positioning several times. In the second scenario with a panther i had one gun moved slightly back and facing forward and the other gun moved forward and to the side facing a portion of the left flank.

Panther was going right where i needed it to so that both guns had a good shot. It was also AT-naded very early but still managed to move up to the second gun and strated circling it. I was repositioning the first gun to cover the second one. Although maybe those two guns still were positioned a bit too close.

The problem is my guns did fire a lot of shots at the panther and i had one covering the other but most shots either pinged or did very little damage. And in the first scenario with the flakpanzer i was just awestruck at how easily the tank could just ride up to the gun while it took at least 3 shots at it, decrew it completely and get away with at least half health left.

In any case thanks for the tips on mines and smoke, i had neither and they could have indeed helped. I will try that out next time.

My tip is give your at guns vision with another unit so they can shoot farther.

AT guns are awful without vision or support

AT guns are not meant to avoid being decrewed, they are meant to get 2 or 3 shots off into a tank. For tanks like the ostwind you are going to pen, and if he has time for a panther you should have some form of support for your Zis.

Keep your Zis surronded by other units and well behind the lines. Use mines, nades, button, etc. to get that critical last shot off. Keep crews alive by reinforcing regularly and recrew guns that have no crew. Loss of the crew is hardly a problem since the major cost of the gun is the gun. You are going to have guns decrewed, what you don't want is to have guns destroyed.

I was playing yesterday and had two hilarious moments with ZiS AT gun.

1) ZiS gun full health, full crew, no vet. Flakpanzer full health no vet, rolled from the front all the way from the maximum distance up to point-blank range of the gun and killed the crew suffering about 40% damage itself. Gun had no infantry support because conscripts were forced out previously but flakpanzer had no support either.

2) 2 ZiS guns, full health, full crew, no vet and with 2 conscript squads supporting took about 5 shots each at a fresh panther with a damaged engine from at grenade. Panther managed to limp past both guns taking about 30% damage the whole time.

Both tanks were moving without the road bonus, no blitzkrieg. So it seems like soviets currently have no manpower-only AT option that can reliably handle even Ostheer T3 or am i just using my ZiS guns in a wrong way? If that is the case what is the proper way to use the gun?

It always good to see people that want to get better.

But i think we need a replay, to give you the best help.

a fresh panther with a damaged engine from at grenade

Considering the panther needs to damaged below 75% to get that critical from an AT nade, my guess is that your two conscripts threw AT nades right out? Both hit with the second damaging the engine?

Also, with two conscript squads with the ATGs, if that panther is just shooting at the ATGs, use merge or recrew the ATGs with them. The panther is not that great at killing infantry.

Also don't expect your ATGs and support weapons to really maintain vet. They're likely going to be decrewed, which is what those conscripts are for.

And lastly, unsupported ATGs, especially a single one, are almost entirely useless. Always pull ATGs back and forward with your forces.

18 august 2013....

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