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Ive talked about OKW in every single comment I've made, so dont tell me I'm going off topic lmao.
Secondly, the last time I went into specifics with you about non doc roster holes, you told me riflemen weren't mainline infantry and were functionally elite infantry, so no, I'm not going to appeal to your "logic" when youve shown time and time again it doesnt exist.
Btw for the rest of the threads information, this conversation took place in shoutbox and when I suggested rifles could be toned down by fitting in an elite inf non doc into the roster, he went on an hour tirade about how rifles were actually elite infantry.
Oh and I have referenced the legacy design decisions, one of which is the topic at hand, the lack of resource caches for OKW and how stupid it is, just like other design decisions that left holes in rosters relic sold back to you with commanders. I'm not sure what else you would like me to say that isnt an 8 page dissertation in MLA format, certainly the comments I've made here have been far more informative and productive than 85% of the trash that gets posted on CoH2.org (DAE think falls not strong enough/DAE think jackson deserves a buff?)
Also you know what could help pip? Playing the game. |
Every post you make seems to be an attempt at a "gotcha".
A thread about OKW and their lack of caches and you chime in with "AHA! IF OKW WERE TO GET CACHES WHY SHOULDNT MY PET FACTION USF HAVE THE CALLIOPE NONDOCTRINALLY? THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME SITUATION IN MY MIND"
Make an argument actually specifically supporting your desire for particular units nondoctrinally in the USF, rather than piggybacking off of unrelated topic, and maybe you'll have a better time.
I'm sorry youre unable to understand what an illustrative example is. This will be the third time I've said this game suffers from legacy design decisions from relic and there is no reason why a game that is ran by modders should still be wed to those poor design decisions. The whole reason this thread exists is because not giving a faction a resource income boost item that all other factions have is painfully stupid? You agree right, like I know you agree 10000% with what I just said, but you lose the plot when I show those same poor design decisions carry on to other facets of balance, like unit rosters. My overall point is those things need to be standardized, the toolbox that factions have available to them, not the unit profiles themselves. Thats where it goes off the rails for you and I'm guessing its because you have PTSD from calliope. If you still can't understand after this comment, youre being willfully ignorant. |
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What is the reasoning behind them still not having caches, from your perspective? Please, do enlighten us all.
If you could actually comprehend the strange squiggles on your screen, you'd understand I support OKW getting caches like every other faction has because its a piss poor design decision. What I've been trying to show you is that broken logic extends to several other facets of balance that are affected by legacy relic stupidity and should be fixed. Just like massive holes in factions rosters for non doc units, leading to knock on balance problems.
But you can comprehend those strange squiggles so you wrote that long comment thinking it was a gotcha. |
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There's nothing inherent in the faction that corresponds to their lack of Caches, in most cases Salvage is primarily a tool to delete team weapons and wrecks (Both of which are done equally well by other factions simply using an AT gun), not really one that provides more than an incredibly negligible amount of resources. If you'd like to argue they should lose Salvage in order to gain Caches, fine, though it's a bit of a petty thing to mandate.
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I'm curious, why in your mind is that a petty thing to mandate? The issue is OKW doesnt have caches right? But they do have another resource income ability that is a bit micro intensive but pretty useful, especially team games. Why should OKW be redesigned to have no resource penalties, given caches that breaks your favored asymmetric balance paradigm, while also keeping salvage? Just because you want it?
What I'm getting at is this game fosters these unproductive arguments around balance because the WFA were so poorly designed from the jump and because of this, you feel the need to protect your favorite mechanics or unique items instead of just saying "you know what we should all have caches because its a basic mechanic at the core of the game and that would also mean we shouldnt additional resource bonuses other factions do becuase its a basic mechanic at the core of the game."
You seem to understand the first part well, "we need this because its core game mechanic" but you're not understanding the second part so well, especially considering balance is a give and take, but youre not a huge fan of the take part. |
Snip
Thats a whole lot of false equivalencies and trying to explain away why the exact same scenario shouldnt be given thought to while the other should.
Either all factions get caches or none of them do. Pretending the game will be balanced otherwise is bad faith delusion. If thats how you prefer the game to be than fine, but dont insult my intelligence by trying to hold the same argument two different ways.
The bottom line: There is no reason why OKW should have caches. There is also no reason why they shouldnt have caches. The only thing thats holding OKW back from having them is outdated design philosophy just like other factions missing unit types that are basically necessary in team games or factions like brits that are just a box of gimmicks because relic was taking the piss when making them.
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It isnt considered "Asymmetrical balance", as they can still benefit from an OST teammate's caches, the only thing it does is put additional strain on OSTheer teammates, inexplicably punish "all OKW" teams in a way that literally no other mono-faction team is, and mean OKW has nothing at all to spend excess MP on.
Thats weird because when I complain about the lack of rocket arty non doctrinally, im told i can rely on my Soviets Katy, which by your logic creates additional strain on teammates, inexplicably punish "all USF teams". If what I said isn't true, than its also not true for OKW caches. Faction A doesnt have x, Faction B has x, and therefore Faction A doesnt need x has always been the argument from balance team. Why would it suddenly change for OKW?
Its the same argument thats been around(and is totally faulty) for awhile. Give OKW caches and give factions missing tools the opportunity to use them non doctrinally. Or give no one caches non doc and put them behind commanders.
"In fact, like you said, OKW no longer has the original design they did on wfa release, resource starved, late war faction. So if thats not the case anymore, isnt that more support evidence they dont need caches?" is perhaps the least logical shitpost I've read in a while, by the way. The conclusion simply doesn't follow the "argument". "They're no longer resource starved so they should have less access to resources than other factions"
So if the fact theyre no longer resource starved is a nonsensical reason to not give someone caches, why the hell would it be a sensible argument to give them caches? Theyre no longer penalized so give them further increased performance? Because their default resource penalties would be greater evidence to give them supplemental income somewhere else.
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OKWs general feature of being resource starved is gone. All their abilities and units (including the KT) have since been rebalanced to match their cost and their counterparts of other factions. All those abilities you mention are not comparable to the -25%(? I forgot already, too long ago) resource debuff they got previously.
The core faction of OKW has become very standardized, with some faction gimmicks just like every other faction. But they are far from the original design of resource starvation. While salvage is not useless, it is far from being really useful to generate enough additional income. You'll probably not be able to salvage more than 2-4 wrecks at the very best in a normal game, since not all of them are recoverable.
The early aquisition of OKW tanks does not cause issues, at least there is no reason to believe so. As I already said, OKW tanks have been balanced to their cost already compared to the other factions. Premade teams buils caches and there are no issues, I personally have not seen issues in game and I can't remember when the last serious complaint was that OKW tanks come way too early in team games. I can't even remember the last non-serious one.
Regarding the random teams:
You are missing the point. I have never said that random games will ALWAYS be balanced, what I said is that we could remove one additional layer of pure chance when there is no reason to keep it. If you play OKW, there is a decent chance that there will be no caches. Even if the matchmaking algorithm worked perfectly and you got a balanced match, you are at disadvantage by default. This is completely different from being screwed over by matchmaking because the community is small. Using random matchmaking as an argument is not adding anything to the topic. If it was then there would be no reason to simply delete units from time to time in random games, because accordingly that is what people want from these games or at least what they sign up to: total randomness.
But playing random is not about randomness. It is about having a match that is as fair as possible, with all restraints given the match making system.
Why is no resource cache not viewed as asymmetric balance? I keep asking for more non doc tools for USF as well but keep being told its asymmetric balance. In fact, like you said, OKW no longer has the original design they did on wfa release, resource starved, late war faction. So if thats not the case anymore, isnt that more support evidence they dont need caches? |
Surely you are able to read and I have made neither claim so there is not reason to put words in my mouth.
I have simply pointed out a fact that Relic has create the role of "flanker" and given to units like the T-34/76.
Oh ok, so useless thread no one asked for, including the guy you quoted to start this thread, got it. |
Having to spend munition for extra sight is also not a good idea since its it sole role it provide vision.
I mean look at this retort from you. You demand all this evidence with your non sensical gip gallosh style of debating while you have gems like "oh its not a good idea since the sole role is vision"??????? What law of COH says vision extending abilities cant cost munis since its vision? There are TONS of muni activated vision abilities in this game, saying other wise is just bad faith and bordering on lying. |
My suggestions to you is to focus on the arguments and not the people.
Do you believe that reckon vehicles like IRHT should have a sight of 35?
If so do you have any argument to back up that belief?
Yeah 35 sounds good to me, its just as arbitary a point like anything else you pick (63?????)
But the point vipper, that you always seem to miss, is that wasn't the discussion of what OP put forward. Have you ever wondered why you start so many threads that begin with a quote from another thread with you saying "it was off topic"? Because you derail almost every thread you jump in, specifically if it has anything to do with a slight axis change. Like he just said spotting scopes should be a muni activated ability, stated his case with the evidence you demanded from me, and you just drone on about IRHT. Its very hard to actually discuss what OP wanted to discuss in that environment. |
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