Situation: vet 5 pfusilier behind green cover. Fully vetted cqc squad approaches from 25-30 meters and stops at 5-10.
The results are confusing.
6 men ppsh cons perfromed better then un-upgraded cav rifles, Assengies and mp40 volks. 5 men Airguards were just better and were often winning that engagement, ppshcons could win. I think if you add a sprint, ppsh cons will definitely win in this AFK situation.
So AFAIK airguards RA is similar to assengies + ppsh is very similar in terms of dps to grease gun. I did around 4-5 rounds with each squad. No idea what was that, actually. Also did a run with UKF officer. He also did win the fight.
Aren't Airguards 6 men or did you delete a model to even it out? If not, even after losing a model, they are still as capable as assault engineers.
I can't tell what made the difference in your tests. Maybe those are real. Do you by any chance remember if some squads dropped models early? Formation has a huge impact on which model can be focused, and if squads drop models early that is a big deal.
The point I quoted was more that the grease gun and PPSh are very similar, also when moving. The differences in performance come from something inherent to the squad, but not the weapon. |
put that aside, grease guns have very bad moving accuracy. That is why units with PPsH, e.g. cqc AirGuards do not have the same issue, even though having worse vet bonuses
PPSh and grease guns don't differ much in their stats. Moving affects them both similarly, losing about 25% of their static DPS. |
Both squads get 40% bonus acc with vet, while Ass Engies get 5% more weapon cooldown reduction(25%->20%).
At max vet Pfussies have 623 effective HP, Ass Engies have 625 effective HP. I dont think veterancy changes anything.
But i havent seen Ass Engies since months. They dont seem to be viable (atleast compared to stock Rifle and there is no Calliope in their commander).
I have to test the matchup myself. vet0 I would be very surprised if Pfusies won. Pfusies are slightly worse than Conscripts close range at that time, while Ass Engis are basically Ass Grens that mow down everything.
Once upgraded, you shouldn't forget that Pfusies centralize their DPS way better. Ass Engis lose 20% of their DPS with each model. Pfusies transfer their valuable G43. |
Well, considering that USF on average has 2x less games than axis factions (around 10k vs 21k+), that 3.5% difference for 11k games is still low, and for my standards, abysmal. Balanced is 50+-1%, 2% is bad, 3+% is really bad. Not really a proof of anything, but showing trends, definitely.
How often a faction is played has nothing to do with win rate. Especially a comparison to the no of games of Axis factions makes no sense at all. How should this ever be achieved if there are 3 Allied factions but only two Axis ones?
Regarding the percentages I don't agree. Getting withing a range of only a couple of % for modes that are notoriously hard to balance because especially 4v4 is just a huge mess overall and that on top of all have never been the main target of balance, all that together is pretty decent. Perfect? Nope, some minor alterations should be done, but they also should not mess with smaller modes too much.
I really can't think of any reason why and what you would nerf because of major getting vet1 spotting buff. Munis are not scarce in teamgames for USF. I don't think I've ever floated more than 80 munitions past minute 25. Smoke, mines, phosphorous, BARs, Zooks (especially in games vs sturmT), nades, etc.
Fuel is not scarce in teamgames. Once you reach the popcap, unless you're soviet, you'll be hogging fuel like Americans
It's not about floating resources. You can have +100 mun income and float nothing if you just spam abilities all the time. It is about being less restricted on resources and actually being able to use abilities, which is certainly the case in team games compared to 1v1 and even 2v2 due to caches and points/cut offs being safer.
Since we're drifting off topic here, I'll just sum it up: Is the Major nerf worth all this discussion? Probably not. My first gut feeling was simply that USF should get a minor nerf if they get a minor buff, since I consider them decently balanced overall. Either way, according nerf or not, this change won't break USF. |
https://coh2stats.com/
All. 3v3 and 4v4. Monthly.
Much higher axis winrates.
I highly doubt major recon would disrupt anything in 1v1s where USF is good so I still don't know why it should give anything in return.
All games since July considered, USF not even 3.5% off of 50%. I wouldn't call that abysemal but well...
To the point: I assume since USF performs well in 1v1 and 2v2, a buff should alsp come with a nerf. There will be more M20s in 1v1, on the other hand the major will also be used more often at the front line and not as an FRP. Plus, munis are not as scarce in team games, allowing more recon overflights. As you said, a rather minor buff but (without testing) I'd say it should probably come with a minor nerf too |
Why should it give anything in return? It's winning rates are abysmal in teamgames and for scouting you need to backtech. With the pak/raketen galore that is 3v3+, getting an LV for scouting is pointless.
USF winrates are abysemal in team games? What?
i think one of the reason they dont such scouting is because they have a non doc recon plane they can call in
Yes, but USF also lacks muni, making that recon rather rare. Plus, the Major is supposed to double as an FRP, which often does not allow for recon.
Overall I'd say USF has indeed worse recon outside of doctrines than other factions |
Instead of buffing major sight I would be all in for buiffing sight of M20 and Greyhound somehow. Maybe just a sightbonus that kicks in if not moving. I'm all in for combined arms and not putting any additional recon on major which already has the recon plane.
Atm even fully vetted M20 and fully vetted Greyhound have less sight than an AT-Gun has range. Combine that with low armor and health and M20/Greyhound die by trying to scout if your enemy scouts your frontline too.
Maybe M20 should be put in HQ and unlocked by LT+Cpt/Lt+tech/Cpt+tech then. So that it is a general scout tool like the major would be and not a backtech option if you went for Captain.
I think the major is one of the best changes. USF lacks munition free scouting. Tying sight to LVs is a great concept, but CoH2 screwed up the part in making LVs viable in the late game. If they die, it is not worth building them again, so all sight is gone.
Major seems like a good choice since it is fragile, only one unit allowed and everyone will get the squad.
Another question is if USF really needs the buff, or what it will give to even it out. |
No need to dive them when your opponent spent 1300 manpower and 430 fuel on two tanks that are totally defenseless from frontal attacks by Tank Destroyers
In team games and on the right maps, this combo can be very efficient if a second OKW player covers with JT or JP4s.
You need at least 2-3 TDs to hold them back, so you invest similar resources, but more POP |
I just want to say that nerfing Panzerfusiliers on the move accuracy is a bad way of balancing them since they'll further get closer to being volks 2
The fact that Panzerfusiliers lost their extra weapon slot means that balancing the unit around 5 men with 3 g43, and increasing their early game AI performance and initial RA with a proper cost increase and reinforce increase that reflects the power of the unit in late game.
Turning Panzerfusiliers into another cover fighter unit in a faction full of stock cover fighters won't add much. Just make Panzerfusiliers actually bleed.
Also their extra sight range doesn't make much sense
I agree. However, my suggestion brings their late game closer to Volks, you suggestion the early game
The design wise best thing in my opinion would be to give them 4-5 G43s, but make those worse(yes, yet another G43 I know). In the end, a full squad would still have high moving DPS, but they are susceptible to model losses. Currently, Pfusies are not until they lose their fourth model. Damage wise it does not matter as much if a 3 men or 6 men squad is moving. They are a large squad with fairly concentrated DPS, especially concentrated moving DPS. This should be somehow kitigated, either by allowing counterplay via model drops or, if not possible, nerf their overall DPS a bit. |
Thanks for the detailed response. I feel that makes a lot more sense then what you said earlier. You are right, the quick calculations do not take into account RA at all however most units don't get their modifiers until VET2-VET3 which I purposely was trying to focus on the early game to about CP3 which only a handful would be at Vet2. At that point more indirect start to be used or available and like you said random wipes start to get introduced which will cause problems.
The reason I went with fully depleted units was to simplify between odd and even number squads. Like you said smaller squad would retreat earlier then larger. Regardless, I like what you presented, it makes sense yet it still leaves me wondering where the MP could be caused by. Even watching high level players go at it, OKW always seems to be able field more squads and keep them on the field where the opp needs to win each battle decisively to get ahead.
I think this comes down mostly to faction design. OKW is designed to have the upper hand in the first minutes until Allied LVs get onto the field. Early on, Sturms need to secure the lead (unupgraded Volks are actually nothing special). Once there are multiple squads on the field, Sturms lose their shock power since they cannot 1v1 other squads as easily anymore. At this point, StGs kick in and Volks need to take the burden. Depending on the faction matchup, this usually gets negated once the T70 or weapon racks are purchased. Allies are constantly being pushed. If not defended properly, OKW can pile up MP in this time. Afterwards, T1 OKW needs to defend itself against a usually superior Allied LV or in T2 stem the bleed itself due to the lack of medics.
Going off topic:
Obers being late game AI fells weird with P4J being so good at it along with nerfs to rocket arty which were a hard counter.
I feel fussi blob is cancer in all game modes, however your suggestion would help a lot with sniping retreating units.
P4J is a good tank, but it can neither burst nor is it really that efficient vs infantry. Soviets have a cheap T34 to deal with infantry, USF the HE Sherman, UKF the Centaur, OST Brum and Ostwind. OKW has nothing similar without doctrine, that's why they get a very efficient long range elite.
Panzerfusiliers are not THAT much stronger than Volks if it comes to static DPS, especially considering that they take a POP more. |
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