Ah. My bad. You're referring to a specific mechanic. I thought you were just referring to attack ground. That's what I was thinking it was, but still if that's the case it's a bit silly.
Why? It is a normal missed shot. It hit the mine, goes through a penetration role and passed. That's how all ballistic shots have worked for ages (probably already since release).
In this case it was unlucky for you, on the other hand it was avoidable by not standing on your own mine, although I understand that it is not that intuitive for PTRS shots, especially since they only work like this for a short time. |
USF vs OKW has been a balance problem from the outset. Mucking around with the JP4 is not going to fix balance.
I did not claim that the JP4 will fix balance for everything, and I never condensed my argumentation into a OKW vs USF only issue. As I stated before: Soviets have issues, USF has issues, UKF has the only non-doc unit that the JP4 is sub-par against.
I see you didn't mention a Zis-Gun and a single SU85 hard counters the JP4. Throw in a couple Penal squads with AT Rifle and it's no longer a problem.
With USF, yes they might struggle against a JP4, but the USF has such an infantry advantage over OKW it should not need to get an ATG and a Jackson to kill the JP4.
I did, when I mentioned that ZiS+SU85 will usually lose over time vs JP4 and Raketen, which is basically true for almost any Allied combo of ATG+TD, except for maybe the British that can equalize with their very good ATG. Handheld AT is not a good counter to long range TDs in the first place. Especially not PTRS that can't burst.
Another point you failed to mention are the maps, certain maps provide excellent opportunity to use the JP4 effectively, other maps do not.
I don't expect you to read through 5 pages of posts, but I did mention that. Very open maps are bad for casemates in general, like Steppes and General mud. Those are among the least played maps. Even on half open maps like Alliance of Defiance, the JP4 works great. You need to be able to make sure that the 1-2 most obvious flanking paths are cover or mined, which is possible on most maps.
Yeah. I admit it's not a glass cannon, but it doesn't do the damage of one either - so it's balanced.
It has generally the shortest TTK against its enemies compared to all other TDs and their respective targets (apart from a vet3 StuG, which only has 50 range and is therefore easier to counter by Allies).
You could easily use a Sherman bulldozer to tank damage whilst your M10's swarm it. More options include Rifleman with zooks, double ATG's or double Jackson's and Rifleman charge to spot. So many options to counter the JP4.
Again, I disagree on handheld AT. Still, this shows the issue. Your suggestion has to go to a double Jackson to counter the JP4 or a doctrinal Sherman with at least two doctrinal light TDs. I've stated already why two ATGs do not really work, you completely ignored that point. |
To have a mobile stun available always. When I play allies I have the option of have mobile vehicle stuns be it guards with dp(always good to have at any stage if you can afford it), AEC/Stuart(not really ideal at late game though), Tulips(Expensive but you can have this and it's under your control). Again at late game mobile stuns that doesn't have an uncontrollable time delay on when can you use it.
I mean it is not mobile, but the PaK's stun is pretty good.
I'd say Ost has overall decent stopping power available with their PaKs and Fausts, not sure why the StuG blind (/or do you want a real stun?) needs to be available earlier.
On the other hand I also don't think that the change would cause a lot of issues, since the StuG is not a preferred TD anyway. |
Just a weird experience I had a few games ago, was playing Whiteball against a soviet player who went PTRS penals and just about 3 times, the PTRS detonated a mine underneath my vechicle.
There weren't engineers around to reveal the mines or anything.
Did I just get bad luck and a scatter shot hit the mine? Or is it something else?
I assume this is new since PTRS went from hit scan to ballistic recently.
I assume a missed shot triggered the mine. |
I have seen the build Hannibal described and did it several times, but again the build is so late and so expensive, that you might lose the game before you get to it.
Personally I think the edge that JP has over other TDs is not that big. Yes, the vet is great, but it is quite lengthy and it exacerbates with the fact that Allies does not have a lot of "shell sponges" like panther, tiger or even Sturmpanzer in their stock roster to get that vet. Hell even Vipper went on a several pages tangent about it cost, which is precisely why I think it should stay the way it is, since it can do what no stock Axis vehicle do - trade with TDs at a rather safe distance.
If the price drops in parallels with some nerfs, JP could become more spammable and result in even more cancer.
I've had this issue too. In this special build, it is a bit hard to get along until you get the Tiger in addition. Afterwards Allies will probably run into the most durable army that CoH2 can offer.
Outside of the build, the JP4 does not really fit the faction. I think it overperforms for what it costs, but underperforms for what OKW needs at the times you'd consider buying it.
... since I don't play 4v4 and it could be an issue at high level there.
Unfortunately I can't speak for either of these as well 
Overall, I rarely see the JP4 when I play Allies. When I play OKW and get a JP4, I noticed I have to force this build more often than it coming up naturally (almost mandatory Kubel to reduce bleed for 1-2 Obersoldaten later on that compensate for the JP4s lack of AI). It works fine once you reach ~18 min and the next vehicle option is in sight to complement the JP4. The build itself is decent, the JP4 is great. But it just does not really fit into the faction outside of specialized doctrinal builds. And that should not be the case for a stock vehicle. |
You are forgetting the JP4's main weaknesses:
1. Turretless, therefore very flank-able and extremely vulnerable from behind.
2. It is a glass cannon, +160 HP at Vet 2 is warranted as it takes skill to use it properly in it's only role which is a TANK DESTROYER.
3. If Allied mediums are trying to go "toe to toe" frontally against JP4 and get beaten off, this is normal.
4. Extremely vulnerable to AT infantry.
If I was Soviet playing against you, I would use a ZiS AT Gun supported by SU85 in spot mode and your JP4 is toast. If I was US I would use ATG with a Jackson. If I was British I would ATG and FF or send in Churchill with 2000 HP for a meat shield and plug away at you.
Just because you are using one unit particularly well, doesn't mean it is OP. Some players are braindead and don't know the counters.
1. I mentioned this one multiple times
2. with 640/800 HP and 230 armor it is everything BUT a glass cannon. None of the other 60 range TDs gets any survivability bonus. Why does the JP4 need it?
3. Again, Axis mediums can go toe to toe to damaged Allied TDs to finish them of. Additionally, the Panther is suitable for deep dives and getting it out alive afterwards.
4. Again, as all other TDs are. This is nothing special to the JP4, so this is no reason to explain its performance.
None of these builds you suggested will really be worth it. Even with such an investment, you will not be able to kill the JP4. And if you consider that the OKW player will have JP4+Raketenwerfer, your USF and SOV combo will not be enough and lose over time.
Deep medium dives are the only option against the JP4. Your TD won't kill it, your ATG won't chase. Handheld AT will likely not do enough damage (unless you go double ranger bazooka blob). Even double ATG (unvetted) builds will only have ~50% kill chance with their first two salvos against an unvetted JP4 and that is already assuming all shots hit. Once the JP4 vets up, there is barely any way to get that much damage in in that short amount of time.
Your best non-doc chance is to dive far behind this thing (even from the side you might get front armor and ~50% bounce chance). And you're diving against the faction that has a quick snare on basically every mainline squad. Best outcome for an Allied player is to trade slightly up with a medium for the JP4. From my experience there is a decent chance that the dive fails and you just lose the medium, so that this strategy overall is more often than not a trade down. |
IMO, you keep saying it like just JP4 vs allied TD coz its never happen in real game. And in a real game is never without a doctrine. JP4 is not durable before vet 2, and their gun miss by a lot. JP4 no turret and cluncky move and no AI capability for OKW is a weakness
raketen really on a tight spot at the moment, they are only shine when they came out, after that they'll lose miserably againts allied META
i am not ask you to dive on allies vs axis, it just OKW vs allies things
No TD has AI, that is not special about the JP4. Yet, the JP4 has superior AT capabilities. The Raketen is good, OKW does not need some AT compensation on the vehicle part.
It is a bit clunky as I said, but this resolves itself at vet. It also is quite durable even before vet2, the armor is enough for mediums not being a threat from the front as well as for bouncing an occasional ATG shot.
I am actually less concerned about the vet0 JP4 than about the JP4 once it vets up. It is almost unkillable (or you force a usually favorable trade) while having top notch ROF. |
The sniper idea draws upon the old cinematic trope (appropriate for CoH2 since it is a very cinematic game) where someone gets shot by a Sniper out of nowhere and everyone takes cover. It maintains the flavour and utility of a Sniper without being too oppressive, because Soviet does need that ability to harass and eliminate high value targets like weapons teams or elites that regular infantry may have trouble handling.
As for the MG idea, it could go like this for something like the MG34:
Suppressive Fire (default)
- Longer bursts of less accurate fire
- Strong suppressive effect with wider AoE
- Narrower firing arc
Aimed Fire
- Shorter bursts of more accurate fire
- Weak suppressive effect with limited AoE
- Wider firing arc
That's why I like this sniper idea too. The current OST stun shot has a fairly similar effect, but it does not make any sense to me. Even in live I'd replace that in an instant for a suppression shot.
I know how the MG ammo could be done stat wise, but there is no logic explanation for it. That's the issue I have. |
I prefer the current implementation of suppression. Partially for realism and partially for balance. If you're suggesting to lower suppression in favor of tearing infantry to shreds, I have to disagree.
Maybe increase damage against units in neutral and negative cover, but I'd say that light and green is probably fine.
Extra damage against units in the open sounds like a good idea. Especially since cover would then become more important. |
it's like saying panther no real issues too againt ATG. JP4 has to micro a lot if they dive (maybe except dive from the front). like everyone said it's never been vacuum.
SU85 has his scope, Jackson can repair it self, Firelly has tulip. <<< this are things that are really really great for TDs
IMO, in late game where allies have so much tools to melt axis tanks, HP increase can help
I dont know why if Axis get a bit of advantage, they gettin anothers nerf...
This is not an 'Axis vs Allies' topic, I am not going to dive into that.
Every TD has strengths, but all of them have an exploitable weakness. I've put my arguments to the table more than once already, so I'll keep it brief here to not overly repeat myself.
Panther and Stug have 50 range vs Allied 60 range TDs. Allied TDs in turn have good guns, but are fragile and/or slow. JP4 is a bit clunky, which gets solved at later vet stages. But that's it. It is durable, has a great gun for what it needs. Allied TDs do not dominate the Axis stock verhicles as much as the JP4 dominates the Allied ones. And the Raketenwerfer is not an issue that the JP4 needs to compensate. If OKW needed to compensate for a weaker ATG compared to Ostheer, their Panther would also need to be stronger, which it is not. |
Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
보드카 중대 
VonManteuffel 
Heartless Jäger 
