Sturmpioneers are in no way like Panzergrenadiers. The only similarity they share is that they both are 4 man squads equipped with Sturmgewehr 44 s. Their abilities, their accuracy, their DPS and a bunch of other stuff are different.
Obers come late, cost way more MP than Rifles and need a 80 ammo upgrade to be even effective in the first place.
Pretty much.
Strums are good as an early game bully that is highly prone to bleed. Properly microed Riflemen, IS and Penals eat it for breakfast. Other than getting STG that are effective AT VERY CLOSE RANGE, that's where the similarities between them and Pgrens end.
As stated, Obers come too late, cost too much, require a minimum of 60 muni (stg's) to be effective, and they can still be whipped by Vet 2 Riflemen Double Bars, Vet 3 Penals, Vet 2 Bolster IS with 1 Bren, and until they vet, they pretty much get pushed around by any Elite infantry unit. And Vet 0 MG 34's, shock troops simply laugh at them (by the way, they cost less and come way earlier and are already equipped with PPsh's)
They need to have their timing comparable to Fallschirms as a vanilla unit to be better, and they STILL would be pushed around until Panzer HQ upgrade. But at least they'd have an opportunity to vet. For their cost and timing, they need to start with at least one G43, two would be better and you lose one when you get STG's or MG34.
Honestly, with the way they are, if I'm going Luftwaffe, I use Fallschims as my bully units. They have weaker HP, but those double FG-42's give them the ability to push off elite infantry units. If I don't have Fallschims, I'll use Panzer Fusilers with G43's, they are simply better and can scale late game and gain Vet early.
I don't mind how much they cost. But purchasing an expensive unit that requires both Vet and 80 munitions to do what it is intended to do (and still can get it's ass whipped and high reinforcement cost), no. They are currently not good enough. |
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I don't mind the OKW changes, particulary of the timing. Good on ya for proposing TTB changes on the bases and splitting costs.
Fallschirms proposed changes are a bit 'eh', because double FG42 Fallschirms are the only reliable infantry counter to assault troops OKW has. They come early enough to do good. My only proposed change would be to substitute the Nuke nade for a quick nade similar to shocks nade. Perhaps a model 24 'cooked nade'
You already get the nuke nade with Obers if you want it, and Volks have the flame nade.
I think splitting the Ausf J. upgrade is unneccessary, but I don't see it as a hindrance either.
Don't mind the Stuka changes.
Would request a 'scuttle' ability for Flak emplacements. They are easily counterable once spotted, and have weak HP. Increase their cost to 35 and have them refund 50mp and 15 fuel.
Also would like to see some more survivability in Vet 5 Volks. They just get chewed up by most units at all ranges near end game.
Would lower the schreck upgrade to 50 rather than 60 for Strums. Its merely a 'don't dive your vehicle here without support' upgrade. |
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Watched it from your perspective, fog of war on, etc.
Some points:
1:20 - Fuel not in supply
(Victory Points not secured)
4:30 - Bad positioning with Volks against penals. Trade space for unit preservation.
5:23 - Happened again
5:45 - Finally secured two VP's
6:20 - Saw the flank good retreat
6:50 - Bad engagement against Penals in red cover.
8:16 - Good engagements.
8:49 - First MG built. (A bit late, imo)
9:49 - T70 supported by 3 Penals
10:35 - T70 against lone Fusilers (non upgraded)
11:55 - Good engagement, should've pushed the Rak gun up under MG 34 Cover, might've shot the T70.
12:22 - Now that opponent knows where the MG34 is, does an obvious double prong flank to force MG34 off.
13:03 - Should've just retreated your AT fusilers against the shock troops instead of trying to garrison.
13:46 - STG Volks engaging in red cover against penals, forced retreat but bled you heavy.
14:30 - Lost first Volks, overextended near enemy base.
15:10 - Good use of AT Fusilers to push off T70.
15:30 - One of my favorite moves if I can pull it off. Vanilla Obers going behind cover, shocks come up as Obers surprise upgrade STG's, put a hurting on them across red cover.
16:53 - 2nd Volks gone, caught too far forward again.
17:50 - Got shocks, but lost your MG 34.
18:00 - No MG, Soviets have all 3 VP's, and your fuel is out of supply.
19:30 - Double shocks will make you bleed heavy. Pick and choose where you engage them.
21:00 - Panther has shown up, you're trying to blow it up, but a T70 is a bit too agile and ringing around the rosy with you. Because of the intensity of this micro, you have units not doing anything right now. You should have your AT fusilers with your panther.
23:08 - Double AT Penals show up, you know they are out there and going to be hunting for your Panther
23:45 - Took out T70, good work.
25:27 - No fuel in supply, that's your lifeblood.
26:07 - Poor microing with Panther, if you are away microing something else, have your tank pointed where the threat is coming from.
27:36 - Still no fuel income, and you're pushing too far forward. Secure your supply first.
28:24 - Great gamble with the deep dive panther, got the heavy tank. You tried backing directly up, which means:
29:06 - AT Penals got your tank, and they really shouldn't have. If your infantry blob came up 10 seconds sooner, you would've saved your Panther. If you had retreated your Panther to an obvious safe area then back to your base, it would've have run into the double AT Penal squads.
Some key points:
1.) Pushing too far forward with depleted infantry is a bad idea.
2.) Support your panther tank. It needs it.
3.) Secure your VP points and keep your fuel in supply.
4.) Would've used at least one more Pz Fusiler with G43, which will each Penals for breakfast.
5.) Don't push too far forward with your Shreck Fusilers. That's not what they are for, they are not Penals. |
This is really bad 1v1 advice.
Taking fights all over the map means you lose fights all over the map, since equal cover IS will beat Volks, forcing you to retreat while he caps/decaps and pops medkit. A single volks won't be able to flank a Vickers. And against UC you need multiple squads to actually force it back. I'd recommend getting a rak as your next unit once you confirm UC, and not before. Getting a rak if there's no UC will put you way behind in the infantry game, contrary to what Katitof claims.
You literally HAVE to pair squads together vs Brits until you're on STGs. Volks don't have enough close range DPS to charge IS 1v1, but you lose badly at range. If you have 2 squads, you can take a bit of bleed to force him into hard retreats and secure map control.
4 IS + UC doesn't hurt the manpower for AT at all and certainly isn't considered spam - it is in fact a very standard build which is very manpower efficient since OKW will bleed terribly against it. 4 IS + UC will curbstomp you if you try to rush for Luchs, since you will get overrun and lose map control. And since AEC has the exact same timing as Luchs, you'll be doubly ruined. If I even go mech at all vs Brits I go Puma first before Luchs, but most of the time I just rely on MG34 + leigs to exploit their lack of smoke, lack of indirect fire, and lack of rocket artillery.
I've been able to use one Strum and a Kubel to take on single infantry units. It usually works pretty well although I lose 1-2 Strums when I do this.
Panzerfusiliers seem to hold their own. (So far.) |
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Just played against USF, concentrated on stopping infantry spam because his doctrines/bulletins made it obvious that was what he was doing.
And he did.
And I couldn't stop him.
Was able to keep it even until the late game...Vanilla Obers cannot hope to contend with Double Bar Vet 2 rifles. Too few units, too few punching power.
Should've went Fallschims. Ah well. |
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Just came across this problem 10 mins ago playing UKF. Infantry Spam and 1 UC.
Again, as I've noted above, it's very hard to counter as OKW because you have no way to suppress infantry early on.
Neither does USF, but rifle squads can hold their own until you get a suppressive weapon on the field.
Counter infantry spam doesn't work, and that's really the only play you have. Strums bleed too much even on flanking maneuvers to get close enough to out DPS sections. I've tried going double Strums/double Kubels, and it works sometimes. But that damned UC nullifies it.
OKW needs a buff to it's timing in general. It would be a highly unpopular opinion, but at this point, they may need their MG34 at T0. They have a flame nade for garrison/team weapons, but honestly, it really is the only thing Allies have to worry about in the first three minutes.
I think the set up time for the Flaktrack needs to be reduced, or the MG34 needs to be available T0. One or the other. Volks need some sort of buff because even at Vet 5, they have difficulty surviving on the field.
I'll keep testing them, but it's a very tough problem. |
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It's tough when they roll out infantry. Strums have to constantly flank or be supported by a Kubel to properly take one (1) infantry section, and likely you'll lose 1-2 units doing it.
It's been stated above, force engagements all over the map. Disagree somewhat on a Luchs, because of how early the Armored Car comes. I'd go Puma with a Rak in reserve and at least 1 Volks to snare.
Bolster is going to come, BREN's are going to come.
IMO, Feverstrum Doctrine is a great doctrine to use for OKW 1v1 vs UKF. Cheap assault packages, LEIG Napalm (against Vickers and AT Spam, Opel Truck and the Flammenpanzer)
OKW will have trouble no matter what if they roll out an UC with 2 IS's.
You can't really use a Rak reliably against a well microed UC (needs two shots I believe), it rips Kubels a new one, it rips Volks new ones until you get your first truck built.
It reminds me of the M3/Penal combo. And OKW really has no answer for that early on as well, except unit preservation and trying to kite them into something awful, which they typically won't unless you are really lucky or they are really stupid.
I always find myself if I'm using fallschims to set up a flak gun near my fuel point. Lets my one MG34 dispatch to other tasks I need it to do. Flak gun suppresses IS blobs, and it wrecks UC's, it even gives the Armored Car some hell.
Often, I find myself going Battlegroup a lot more against UKF. Gotta keep my units healed, and I have to use the flaktrack sparingly because again, the Armored Cars timing is a bitch.
Don't fight fair, and sweep the leg Johnny. |
What defines a elite infantry ? In my opinion Vet 3 5 men sections with double Bren are elite too ( after all they also can take on Vet 5 Obers on max range ( not complaining here, just stating this )
I consider an elite infantry unit a pure anti-infantry unit.
Shock Troops, Obers, Rangers, etc.
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340 MP, 4 man squad that's locked at a minimum of 400 MP, 85 fuel specifically intended for pure AI, when it hits the field with upgraded MG34's (Which cost another 100MP and 60 fuel, cannot do the job it was intended to do against an AT squad.
Obers hit the field against shock troops, and cannot drop enough units against shocks who can literally walk up to Obers, under red cover, and decimate them at optimal range with the quick nade, even under green cover.
I've said it repeatedly now: Obers come way too late to do enough good to be efficient to their cost. If they came out in similar timing as Fallschirmjagers, then they can have an opportunity to vet and live up to their reputation as terminators. You'd still have to micro the heck out of them, but that timing will still force them against vetted infantry with a single BAR at the point. |
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Just out of curiosity, I'd like to hear why vetted AT penals can take on Vet 0 MG34 Obers.
This happened to me about five minutes ago.
Was red cover vs. red cover too.
Obers are coming way too late to really do anything 1v1.
Honestly, fallschims are a better investment, they come earlier, they get weapon unlock eariler, and they can be airdropped anywhere. |
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