Profile of Mazianni

Panzer III (and this unit as well) would make more sense thematically for Ostheer (as well as from a balance perspective).

Hetzer and Ostwind are hardly weak either, just have weird timing with OKW's truck system. With veterancy both units are actually pretty scary and possibly too good (good luck getting them vetted though).

This would just further punish keeping your light vehicles alive into the late game, a point in time where they are already painfully useless atm (with the possible exception of Puma and AEC, and even those are questionable*)


*Stuart also has one somewhat useful ability for versing tanks, and then a suicide snare button in the engine block shot ability

Not a very elegant solution either. We are specifically moving away from invisible modifiers as much as we can to make the game more straightforward to everyone. Introducing artificial accuracy modifiers (on top of the natural accuracy modifier that is target size) is not a good direction to take.

On this subject: I mean no disrespect, but is the secret higher retreat RA on the M2HB ever going to be normalized?

To me it seems very strange that there would be a bent towards streamlined unit statistics when so many of the last few patches have involved unorthodox solutions like more received damage modifiers for vehicles and infantry, infantry_discount tweaks, and the multitude of requirement_action changes infantry sections underwent when they were nerfed.

It is not as though this needs necessarily be a complex modification either; the exact reverse could be engineered with a lower (or normal medium tank) baseline accuracy and a target-type modifier for heavy tanks (which would also make TDs less a full measure counter versus light vehicles as well as medium tanks)

I am also curious why there would be hesitance to place a build requirement on heavy tanks as it is not altogether anything more to request than the massive number of requirements already put upon producing them, and depending on the placement in the build order certain requirements could actually be removed, since the building required would in my proposal be the very building the unit is being built from, and any tech required normal for unit production at that stage anyway.

If we decrease effectivness top-TDs against mediums we will get situation with effectivness allied mediums vs axis mediums (hi waves of threads about balancing allied mediums against axis mediums), especialy fun will be with soviets, where stock t-34/76 is trash against p4. 1vs1 each axis medium better than allied, add stug/JP4 and you will get reverted version of current allied meta (top tier TD+mediums). Stug and JP4 counters any medium and have range advantage, P4 have armor advantage and always have better chance to win 1vs1 engagement. Such changes just make commanders with premium mediums/tds meta (t-34/85, m4c, E8, m10).

IMHO, if we want get rid off allied TD meta, the better way just increase DAMAGE (200 or 210) and reduce ROF. TD still need 4 shots to kill mediums, while have low ROF, it will be much less effective against mediums and give them more time in fight against TD's, but make them more orientated against heavy targets.

It is true that axis mediums are generally better all around and particularly versus other tanks, especially when compared to the T-34/76 and to an extent the Cromwell. However, they are generally more expensive and in some ways are a natural mirror to the generally superior light vehicles the allies get earlier in the game (T-70, Stuart vs Pz II, Sdkfz 222). With the possible exception of the T-34/76 because of its terrible main gun, I think the discrepancy in stats between factional medium tanks is not too terrible as to pose a major balance issue. Target-type style accuracy change also means that allied TD effectiveness versus Stug III and JP4 should remain unchanged, and the JP4 would also be subject to this nerf.

I would recommend maybe increasing T-34/76 penetration at least at max range (from 80 to 90 or somesuch, so it at least has a 50% chance of penetrating Pz IV in long distance trades)

This thread is an attempt at identifying and resolving key issues with the current tank meta in CoH2 without making drastic changes, thereby hopefully allowing for impartial changes that can be effected in a single patch or two.

As such this will be a relatively short opening post split in two parts: issue identification and issue resolution.

Issue 1: Heavy tanks dominate the meta. The faster availability of heavy tanks and their AI buffs make the appearance of heavy tanks such a commonality that it forces a very short window for medium tank play and further contributes to TD meta on the allied side as no other vehicles are capable of tackling them.

Issue 2: Tank destroyer dominance. TDs, again typically on the allied side, are such an effective counter to medium tanks that it further limits their timeframe of viability and can be said to contribute to the existence of the heavy tank meta.

Other issues can be said to exist presently, regarding Ostheer T4 or certain nonviable units like the SU-76M, but for simplicity's sake and to hopefully prevent partisan flamethrowing I will not cover them here. Furthermore, in my opinion, both these issues are inextricably linked to one another, and one can not be resolved without the other.

Without further ado...

Resolutions to Issue 1:

1. Move all call-in heavy tanks back to CP-12 (with the current tech requirements). This artificially delays their arrival and was the original position for many of these units. It is no coincidence that the majority of the heavy anti-armor commander abilities are also unlocked at this command point window. This is a simple solution that does not modify the actual capabilities of these units and so may not be seen as the correct solution, but it would in my opinion benefit the meta tremendously regardless. Being a simple fix it would also be easier to determine competitive impact.

2. A more radical solution, but still one that does not involve much stat changing, would be to require heavy tanks be physically built from tech structure and with a long production time. Preferably this would be done via end-tech T4 building on each side, which may have the side effect of making Ostheer T4 preferable, though it could also be argued it makes the Tiger less accessible. I would like to see this implemented at some point in the future, given how stupid it is that heavy tanks can be called in instantaneously but not very basic medium tanks or TDs, but it is a more difficult solution and thusly not one I see as realistic at this time.

3. Stat changes and/or price increase. Most difficult solution, least realistic, but probably eventually inevitable. In any case I will not discuss specifics because this solution would not be something easy to implement and this thread is concerned with simple fixes that could be effected in a single patch and not intricate ones.

Resolutions to Issue 2:

1. A 75% or so decrease in TD accuracy via the target-table when being used on medium tanks via type medium_tank. Note this type is also applied to the Panther; in this case the Panther should have it replaced with the heavy_tank target type, or otherwise lose the medium_tank type, so as not to be effected by this change (given that the allied rosters have no other armored counters to the Panther)

The Stug III, SU-76M, Panther (if we consider this a TD) and possibly the M10 should be exempt from this nerf. Also exempt should be the heavy call-in TDs. This change would make Tank Destroyers less effective versus medium tanks while keeping them effective versus vehicles for which no other counters would exist (Heavy call-in TDs exempted by nature of their enormous expense and limited viability in any case). I also believe, as part of this change, the M36 could probably lose the above-average moving accuracy it currently has in order to cement its use as a defensive or reactive instrument and not a diving unit.

Note this resolution is the only (relatively) simple one that I can immediately devise and is partly dependent on resolution of Issue 1, as any modification of the allied tank destroyers in particular would be, and the results of that change would need to be examined before much statistical work can be done on the variety of TD units and TD analogues involved in this issue.