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if it doesnt state otherwise, it is that easy
do you want to buy an i7 7700k in the next time? because if not, wait, as long as stuff isn't broken |
OKW was designed around an overpowering late-game, when they had a super-shitty early game.
OKW never had a shitty early game, supressing kubel was arguably stronger than current kubel
As long as we keep throwing stuff that scales badly (e..g., too much, or too little) into the game, of course 4v4 will be a shitmode. ITs the very nature of coh that some units scale better or worse into lategame and that risk vs reward opens up the strategic diversity. having all untis scale the same would be boring
Do we really want matches to continue to revolve around a very narrow set of maps for a very narrow set of modes? we need to. some units will always scale better into 4v4 (artillery, caches, long range AT) and you cannot change that, so you have to decide for which mode you balance. i know that you are a 4v4 warrior and that it might hurt you, but 4v4 will never be balanced as long as 1v1 is balanced
Changing resource income for 3v3/4v4 is a major interference in teamgame mechanics, and that might alienate a very large portion of the audience, which Relic might have every interest in retaining.
true, but it would drastically better the balance in the mode. and to be honest 90% of all 4v4 players would not even notice
Putting a bar on how far certain things can scale is a no-effort interference with 1v1. This is because 5-star vet is already considered a statistical outlier (i.e., only ever happens when things go "wrong"). that would of course offset the 1v1 balance. vet 5 volks for example are often seen in 1v1s and reward the player for keeping that squad alive due to good micro
Prokw is strong early and strong late, not a good compromise in my opinion, as they are like US but downright better outside of the now nerfed Rifles hit vet3 with double upgrades and light vehicle dominance with the nerfed Stuart.
OKW is strong early and late, USF is trong early and mid. quite fair to be honest
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This all boils down to whether we want every 4v4 match ever to look like a faithful copy-paste of the one before that, and that match either ending in an allied victory in 20-ish minutes, or an allied /surrender in 20-ish minutes.
yep, we want that, because it makes 1v1 and 2v2 more interesting
This looks more like an accident than anything else.
OKW was always very strong in lategame and not by accident. they were always meant to dominate lategame
honestly 4v4 always was a shitmode, and will stay like that, too many players to be competetive. but if you really want to make it a better mode, then change ressouce income and also cache income in 3v3 and 4v4 and leave 1v1 alone |
Simply-put. The game shouldn't turn into a constant uphill battle for faction X, just because Y made it to the late-game.
why not? this adds an interesting mechanic, a mental pressure,spices things up by introducing the need to outplay the opponent
This isn't about balancing for 2v2+. This is about not throwing things in that deliberately sabotage balance for 2v2+, especially when those things add little/nothing to 1v1:
first of all:
it adds a lot to 1v1 and 2v2
second:
you wont throw things in because it is like that now (and was designed that way), but take them out. wehrmacht for example is stronger than sovs in lategame when on even playing ground.
To change that and balance it out you would have to fuck up balance completely |
The thing is, they are getting nerfed so that apparent early advantage is disappearing in a slowly fashion.
they will still have an advantage early on, but some of their units wont be so oppressive anymore.
remove the scenarios on which: i got a certain unit composition therefore i'm "invincible" right now. Specially if that certain unit composition requires the least amount of effort to use.
Outplaying shouldn't be:
-i choose X commander and i click IWIN offmap
-i built a unit and i sit it on certain position therefore now it takes you triple the amount of effort to deal with it while i look at the damage it does
-I got X amount of vet/weapon upgrades, now i can effortlessly roam around the map with a blob without taking care of positioning or whatever.
I agree with you there
USF's late game would get better if it had the same ability like OKW, meaning that if you had all three officers that you could call in a Pershing. I don't think that would affect 1's
Seeing that most people get all three officers in 1v1, i disagree and think that it would change 1v1s completely
No, because then the factions with an early or mid game advantage will be favoured since they will have an edge in more stages of the game than a faction which is only strong late.
That is only if the advantage in late-game is too small to balance the game overall
I think Smith didn´t mean it as he said that.
He doesn´t want all factions to be equally strong lategame.
He wants to give all factions option to surive in lategame.
i think he does mean it that way. his post which i partially quoted in the opening is quite clear. If he voiced your second point, i would have agreed with him
Or then tell me how can USF counter sturmtiger + kingtiger + volks vet5
only by having loads of jackson and outplaying the opponent severely. it's definetely quite hard, but they have a lot of advantages early and mid
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All 3 of us are of the opinion that games should not end because X faction survived until minute Y.
Neither am i. I just think that making it harder to win vs faction X after minute Y and introducing the option of winning due to outplaying your opponent adds a nice mechanic and increases strategic diversity.
Did Relic (and i dont mean Kyle by that) intend your "idea"?
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But this is the reason why T70, Stuart, AEC, Rifles, Mortar, Penals and so on, are getting nerfed!
it would rather that the reason for that is strategic diversity and complexity
USF already has issues late-game even in 1v1, if you don't pick the call-in commanders
so had vcoh usa. would you say that the 2.602 1v1 matchup between wehrmacht und us was bad? you can't honestly believe that!
again, pls answer:
Do GGthemachine and miragefla have the same opinion? and are you sure that relic intended this?
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In different ways. For instance Sov has better lategame than Ost but this is based on doctrine, and Ost can compensate with veterancy abilities.
Ost definetely has better lategame then sovs
But even in this real world, an indefinitely long game should be decided by skill. 'Army X is OP lategame but it sucks in the mid-game' is an example of two problems that don't cancel each other out.
why does this not cancel it out? if carefully done with balanced maps this provides the ebb and flow everyone wants
But since this balance tended to work past a certain skill level, if at all, the myth was born.
It definetely worked out and way better than in coh2
There is absolutely no way we are ever going to bother balancing around 4v4, specifically . Making all factions converge to the same end-game strength is the only realistic way to allow balancing efforts to scale.
is 4v4 so important to you, that you want to change 1v1 and 2v2 dramatically?
Because USF for example would need a strong buff to its tanks and a further nerf to its infantry to stay competetive in 4v4, okw a midgame buff and a lategame nerf. Quite honestly, you would have to change it all! And it would make the game boring in the lategame and change something which belongs to the core of coh. One more questions: do GGthemachine and miragefla have the same opinion? and are you sure that relic intended this? (because many people dont think relic intended this to be)
right now it rather seems to me like a "obsession" of you guys but not like a really good balance idea!
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However to bias a particular faction to overperform in the late-game (10-12-o-clock) is horseradish.
vcoh clearly had that and it worked out beautifully. well, 4v4 was unbalanced, but nobody cared
now, my question is, how exactly do you want a faction that is strong in lategame be weaker in ultra-late game? after all units are available in late game (8-10), there will be no shift in balance anymore?!
Please ensure that your poll is objective and not designed to bring hate stuff down on any particular person, otherwise it will be invised. 
dont worry  i pretty much always try to be constructive |
In another topic i had a discussion with Mr. Smith, the bugsmasher from WBP team (gj on that!), about late-game strength of factions.
Here is a shortened quote from him:
The design of CoH2 so far is:
- Ideally, all factions should converge to the same late-game strength
To be honest, i disagree both with that this is the intended design and more importantly that it should be!
So i want your opinions: Do you want that all factions should converge to the same late-game strength? |
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