Any particular reason you ignore rifles(you know, the only unit in game penals can be directly compared to in relation to scaling) vanila and with dual bar every single time when you make this kind of comparison?
If it because it makes your post completely random and pointless?
Here you go:
1bar vet3 Rifleman have 37,4/24/15 dmg at range 10/20/35.
2bar vet3 Rifleman have 41,4/28,3/18,21 dmg at range 10/20/35.
Compare this to 41.3/33.6/20.6 and you see that Penals have almost the same dmg(or even more dmg at some ranges) as double bar Riflemen. In the mod they lose some off the dmg for rec acc that puts them in the same league as Obers, Sections and Rifleman (effective HP). And then there is the vet 1 that straight up buffs their combat power and makes the fact that they lose 1/6 dmg per model rather negledible.
Conclusion: There is absolutly no! fucking reason to give Penals a combat buff or weapon upgrade with t4.
I really like Penals and im an oldschool Penal+su76 player and even i dont see a 7th man Penal upgrade happen with the current gamestate. But im all in for some extra utility with t4. Give them something funny to do or something special. Smoke, sprint, faster capping, vehicle repair, idk. Depends ofc if only unpgraded Penals get that or both.
And about Penals Ptrs and weapon drops in general: It felt like Penals drop Ptrs way too fast in the mod. Maybe this could be adjusted. I think units shouldnt drop weapons when they dont die. I dont know why players get randomly punished when their squads lose models. Its ok if you lose your squad and drop the weapon, thats clearly a missplay, but otherwise? |
You've skipped the reminder. Gren late game problems stem from AoE, not small arms.
Also, upgraded PFs are jampacked with utility and allied weapons are balanced to fight vs 4-5 man squads, not 6 man ones.
Your clearly stated that penals are not viable cause they have no weapon upgrade. That point was just about raw combat power and not utility and therefore just plain wrong. And Pfusies have other weak points that penals dont have. And about anti-tank power. What exactly is that? The faust/snare? Are Sections unviable too cause they have zero at? Or do you build piat Section? You even have the option to go for the ptrs upgrade. It may not have the alpha dmg of Shrecks and elite Zooks, but atleast it doesnt render the dmg against infantry to worthless levels. |
Ok, lets put that into practice then:
Volks - have upgrade - viable mid and late game, fall off because of intended design of transitioning into being supported by obers.
Grens - have upgrade - viable mid and late game.
Rifles - have upgrade - viable mid and late game.
Tommies - have upgrade - viable mid and late game.
PFs - have upgrade - viable mid and late game.
Fucking osttruppen - were not viable - got upgrade - became viable late game.
Conscripts - had no upgrade, were not viable, got upgrade, became viable.
Penals - have no upgrade, are not viable late and mid game.
There, the theory is based on hard fact that supports it with undeniable proof.
Also, reminder: we're talking about firepower in squad vs squad combat, before you try to play vehicle card, which only makes it much worse for penals.
Neither of which is true for penals.
? Base Grens and Volks are viable lategame, but Penals not? Thats an opinion and rather controversial. Penals were fine in the Okw-Sov matchup before 7man Cons got introduced. Its just that Osttruppen and 5man Grens are too good and 7man Cons perform very well. Penals are combatwise very similar to upgraded Pfusies and nobody says that this unit underperforms. Penals have surperior veterancy boni compared to almost every other squad. And with the upcoming changes they will be even better. They dont need an offensive weapon upgrade.
I think the M3 needs a little bit more armor. It dies too fast vs small arms in the mod. And the t34 timing is rather bad compared to the ost p4 (and okw p4 when bg into schwerer rush). There could be a subtech for katy, su86 and every doc tank, while t34 and Mobilize Reserves get unlocked with the cheaper t4 (something like 60/30 fuel instead of 90) |
What I mean is. Late game, where cover matters, every faction has enough tools to displace. If your mainline infantry loses to a straight shootout cover to cover. Then don't do that???
Each and every time one unit will be superior, be it superior by design, veterancy (longer on the field), upgrades (investment). Nobody can and should not complain about late game infantry supremacy in this or that faction.
1. Thats the problem. 7man cons are way superior in this case. They can tank way more arty and tank shells than Volks and Obers explode even faster. Their power to hold point is incredible. And they are really cheap to maintain. They still threat with snare and can even beat voks reliable. Thats why they get a nerf on vet 3.
2.So a vet3 240 mp 60 muni squad is supposed to reliably beat a 260 mp 60 muni vet 5 squad? Ok then let me beat rifle with grens at that stage  .
Cons are designed to carry you through the whole game.
Volks are designed with obers supporting them from mid game onwards.
Cons start weak and become strong.
Volks start strong, peak in early mid game(light vehicle phase) and fall off late game.
And both work fine and as intended.
Cons will be slightly weaker post patch, but the overall dynamic between mainlines isn't going to change.
Maybe in your dreams. Cons had no stock upgrade for 6 years until the balance team added it. And i still think that a combat upgrade for cons is dumb and they should get more utility instead of this. |
In other words, volks rushing cons in cover won't win, neither the cons rushing volks in cover will win. In late game, where cover is plentiful and the focus is more on the tanks/arty, it works well going vs stuka as opposed to going vs katy (one is alpha strike that deletes everything that is caught, other is an area denier that can wipe if no retreat is ordered, but chances are you'll survive).
Cons do not deserve nerfs.
Cons dont have to rush anything. Thats the problem. They win long range, so Volks have to close distance, but while advancing you are likely to lose models cause volks have omegabad rec acc. There is no way that volks win over 7man cons. But they dont have to. There are Obers and the 7man upgrade comse way later than Stgs so Volks have a window of pportunity there. |
seems stacked doesn't it? pitting offensive infantry against a unit whos entire job is to outlast the enemy, with an upgrade specifically to make that happen in a scenario that inherently favors that?
can we test ostroppen in cover against shocks in cover at max range next to determine who is the better unit?
[Live] Vet 3 7man Cons vs Vet 5 Stg-Volks
Effective HP: ~789 vs ~520, thats ~52% more HP
Dmg at range 5/15/25/35:
Cons 30,1/23,8/19,6/12,6; Volks 36,9/28,1/20,9/11,7
So Volks have 22%/18%/6%/-7% more dmg.
Conclusio: 7man vet 3 cons are superior to vet 5 Volks with Stgs, there is no reason to discuss this. Ofc the Cons ugrade has a later timing than Stgs on Volks and should therefore be more potent in theory. But i think its reasonable to adjust the vet of Cons (see balance patch), cause their veterancy was balanced around no stock (weapon) upgrade. So after adding one, this is the next step.
Cons seem a bit lackluster in the midgame though. Maybe molotov could be a little bit better before vet2. |
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Radio Silence: Cant say much about this ability cause i dont use tac map and im less depended on the minimap than other players. But i like these unique concepts. Increasing the cooldown or removing the move speed seems reasonable.
Inf. Nades: I agree: Increase the price and remove the dumb cancel cost.
Flares: Retarded ability. No counterplay, little cooldown, low effort and quite cheap. Remove the ability and give volks the flare ability of Panzerfusilliers imo. |
Obers melt rifles with the LMG and vet2+. Rifles can only win on short range with 2x bar upgrade, other than that, rifles lose. Volks are there not to stand behind cover and just trade, but to use flame nade to flush out the rifle squad. Unlike the regular nade which just explodes, the flame nade denies cover for some time. You can, but it's ill-advised to build and use volks as the main fighting force once obers and heavier armour are there. Furthermore, even if obers and volks are outnumbered. they can easily trade behind green/yellow cover agains 2x larger blobs long enough for your stuka to do it's thing.
Vet 3 lmg obers is the ideal scenario for okw and (most of the time) way later than vet 3 rifle with bars/lmg. Even when you measure max range vet 5 ober + vet 5 volks, 2 vet 3 rifle squads with 1 lmg and 1 bar have more dmg than them. So i dont get your "melt". Combined with their better rec acc they win every engagement where both players have equal cover.
Dont get me wrong. I dont want to have vet5 terminator volks, who beat rifle and sections. I just think that they could use something like -10% rec acc at vet 5 to reduce bleeding. Penals have a similar problem and it gets adjusted in this balance mod.
And about combined arms:
Yeah lets say both players have 4 mainline squads with equal vet and weapon upgrades, a anti tank gun, one tank and one mortar/leig. If both micro at the same lvl the one with the better inf will push most of the time, cause his opponent has to fall back once his frontline units are retreating. And volks are never the better inf in the lategame.
I have seen enough 2vs2 games in the latest tournaments, where okw players struggled heavily to hold ground in the lategame, while mostly providing arty and some at to help his ost mate. |
You're supposed to transition into obers and armor for damage in late game while volks are meat shields for them.
Thats still unfavorable for okw. Lets look at a combat between 1 ober + 1 volk vs 2 rifle.
Effective HP:
Volk Ober Both // Rifle Both
520 640 1160 // 635 1270
So 2 riflemen have more effective hp than 1 volks and 1 ober.
And about armor: What am i supposed to do when im forced to go mech with puma stuka? Obers arrive significantly later, while the p4 (the only ai vehicle in schwerer) has no real shock value in an even game. Ofc there is the kt, but thats very far away at that point. |
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I have one (serious) question about volks (for the balance team):
Are volks intended (by game design or whatever) to be this bad lategame?
Their rec. acc. on vet 5 alone is (compared to other mainline squads) questionable. (0,77 vs 0,63 rifle/0,66 sections/0,71 cons).
Is there a reason why volks dont get to a similar value with vet5? Their dps would be still inferior to others. Charging other infantry at that stage is just bleeding manpower without getting anything done. Or am i supposed to completely replace them with obers?
About the battlegroup changes: I think the current implementation is quite good. Its mostly for backteching after mech, but it seems more fluent and helps getting heal without ostheer mates. |
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