Whenever I play 2s I just feel like no matter what side I play I'm just getting cheesed to death by either bunkers, pack howies, snipers, LMG blobs, MGs on no flanking maps etc. Maybe i'm just washed up and need to take up bird feeding.
But actually though I feel like both sides struggle because of cheese.
+1 |
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Happened to me and my friend on Eindhoven. I couldn't upgrade CE with neither sweeper nor flamer and SU-85 of my teammate got bugged too during the same match. This never happened on Eindhoven before and I played dozens of matches there. |
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Good job guys, you truly are the excellent people that AECoH was talking about. |
I would like to mention that the higher damage is only noticeable because it takes longer to suppress. When a unit is instantly suppress, they take less damage.
Following this logic, Maxim would deal even more damage. I believe there is more to that than just suppression, I could be wrong though
It's just my observation, but Vickers feels like it deals more damage than what you'd expect from an MG. It's unique in this regard and I think the trade of suppression for damage is just fine for both sides.
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It is dependant on context of the factions available
brits and USF have the hardest time killing an elefant, yet Soviets can counter one even non-doc very easy with katy to wipe support and single penal to force one off.
I would say it's not the entire truth. FF for example has tulip rockets that stun and blind the Elefant and always pen. USF on the other hand has mobile turreted TDs with HVAP rounds vet1 so this helps too. For non-doc soviets the best you can do is bleed manpower with infantry/ATG or zerg bunch of T34 hoping that you can park them behind ele long enough to destroy it. SOV is the only allied faction that can't really use it's TD in direct fight with the Elefant. |
So can we reduce its armor to 110? Yes? No!?
Yes, if ISU is shot from behind it should be rewarded with penetration. Its range means that it should not be threatened by rear shots anyway. Rear armour of tanks was usually considered extra weight that makes suspension, gearbox, etc. wear faster so the less armour the less maintenance, or larger gun, or more ammo, or sth.
I don't see a problem with rear armour reduction for ISU152. |
Yea. The ISU's power comes almost entirely from its HE round; that round is quite absurd.
The Ele can be obnoxious, especially on narrow "lane" maps, but it's still only a dedicated AT weapon. If you instead opt to focus on infantry and ATGs, it's not too hard to deal with, since it's a massive 720mp/245f/21pop unit that can do literally nothing to those units.
The ISU, however, doesn't have that downside. If you focus on tanks, like the STUG, Panther, etc. it can still (to some degree) deal with those, thanks to its strong front armor, and decent HP pool, mobility, and AP round. If you focus on infantry/ATGs, the ISU can deal with those exceptionally well, thanks to the HE round's massive AoE and range (it can out-range ATGs, as you said).
This is, of course, only considering the units themselves. As others have pointed out, the ISU docs are incredibly viable in a huge variety of maps, whereas the Ele only excels in the "Jaeger Armor Doc", which focuses almost entirely on AT and Recon, and offers nothing in terms of AI.
Additionally, when looking at docs to counter these vehicles, Sov is simply much better equipped. Ram + Offmap is a much better vehicle "deletion" system than anything OST has to offer. If the Stuka Dive Bomb had the ability to 1-shot the ISU, then things would be a fair bit different (although that would make SDB absurdly overpowered).
Well, ISU152 is even more expensive than Elefant and Elefant comes in a faction which has Ostwind, Brummbar and Panzerwerfer stock so I don't think any extra AI is needed. Meanwhile SOV stock lategame AI comes primarily from T34 and Katy.
Both doctrines are extremely good, but I would not underestimate the power of Recon Plane and Stuka Bombing being in the same doctrine as Elefant. One of the SOV ways to deal with Ele if you don't want to ram and IL2 bomb it, is to constantly displace it with ML20 barrage, as the Elefant is so big it gets hit often and you just can't stay there and repair under barrage. This counter is completely negated by the Recon+Stuka combo, unless your opponent is Brit/USF and they go Sexton/Priest, but those are the only 2 doctrines western allies have that counter the Elefant.
Additionaly someone mentioned Spotting Scopes being nerfed, they were nerfed indeed, which is good, however this only means that you can't self spot and move at the same time. Meanwhile you can still just park 222 next to Elefant and give it 90 vision once your 222 shoots enough planes to get to vet2.
IF not for ISU's HE shell, nobody would build this unit. I only use it for AT sometimes just to vet it faster to vet2 at which it gets extra reload speed. |
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While improving game mechanics or, like in this case, the accuracy and target size system for vehicles is a good thing, I honestly never found it problematic. The game involves a lot of RNG management and choosing to fire on the move, or to stop and fire and manipulating with the distance of the engagement, they all depend on your and your enemy's decisions and the outcomes are easy to predict. With most vehicles being fairly similar in size and easy to hit if played right, it also feels intuitive and I am hesitant to changes in this field.
Meanwhile a significantly less flexible system that brings any teamgame meta to TD/Panther/Heavy spam is related mostly to damage breakpoints and penetration. For example, 1 ATG needs 3 reloads (4 shots) to kill an average medium tank, but 2 ATGs need 1 reload each (2 shots each) to kill the same tank. This is 3 times lower time-to-kill and is a bad design, as all it takes is just to build 1 unit extra, meanwhile your wipe potential increases 3 fold. Additional problem is related to penetration and some armoured units being horrbile versus other be it P4 vs Comet or Cromwell vs Panther. While I don't think mediums should win vs premium mediums, they could definitely be less useless against them. Current armour flanking system is a gimmick with map design dictating the engagements and occasional close range tank phasing. Lago suggested quite some time ago a point-blank system for tanks which would allow mediums to score penetrating hits more often if the engagement conditions are favourable (for example a close proximity fight between allied medium and Panther in Lienne Forest, where tank destroyers or ATG have no range advantage or sight). Suggested point-blank system is a band-aid and is by no means perfect (potential tank gameplay facehug dumb down), but it's already better than current system.
If the Medium/Premium-Medium/TD dependancy is improved and Mediums are less useless in Premium engagements, TD could see a change to be a support unit with lower rate of fire and damage breakpoint picked such to synergize with Mediums but by itself having high overkill vs Mediums and with always high penetration. This would leave them vulnerable even to P4 attacks if they were left alone. This would also make them preferred companion for Mediums as TD would require less micro than Medium itself and would be a solid force multiplier.
Not sure if any of you agree with me on this topic, or if any changes this big could even make it at this stage of game life, but we can always theorycraft and potentially provide some decent ideas for potential future system of coh3, ofc in another thread, as this one is related to vehicle accuracy and target size. |
Thread: Panther16 Apr 2020, 00:06 AM
it should be a main battle tank with a cannon that deals with infantry too.
Not sure if this helps you or not, but with pintle MG upgraded close and mid range static Panther deals some convincing damage to infantry, we are not talking about P4 level of AI damage of course, but it sure can force home a squad that is trying to cap a point. What I noticed is that some players get too impatient and try to drive very close to deal AI damage and they lose more damage by being mobile than they gain from getting closer. Bunch of machineguns on a tank can substitute main gun in AI department at times. |
SU85 with Focus Sight toggled and Tracking has 100+ sight
Thanks, for some reason I forgot that you can combine the two abilities to get some extra sight range. |
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