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Thread: Why Soviets are OP19 Oct 2020, 11:00 AM Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 08:22 AMVipper There is problem with such upgrade which apparent with Sherman dozer upgrade. The low cost allows early access and the upgrade makes the unit remain good through the game allowing to spam the unit. In addition I doubt it would an effective change even if it was implemented, with the 7 men upgrade and by moving doctrinal tank to T4 Soviet want to build the T4 as soon as possible and once it is build the SU-85 would remain a better option than SU-76... your two statements contradict each other... on one end youre concluding that the upgrade makes the unit lame and spammable and on the other youre claiming it may not be enough because the soviets still have the SU-85/zis/7 man on T4 combo... this is exactly why the upgrade is necessary... that ways the soviets dont rely on a one trick pony for the lategame and can function efficiently either with multirole SU-76s or the SU-85/zis + T-34 trick... Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 08:22 AMVipper It is not a question if it should be a hard counter or not but how easy it counter. Ability to selfspot even beyond max range nearly 100% chance to damage as PzIV at range 60 is bad design that ignores two game mechanism (chance to hit and chance to penetrate). To put in plain English if the SU-85 on top of that did 640 to PzIV it would "crush the panzer 4" "as it has every right" but I think we can both agree that it would bad for the game. As long as the SU-85 is better vs every target than SU-76 and as long as the zis has a close enough barrage there will be little reason to build SU-76. the argumentum ad absurdum falls flat at the original premise though, remember that on one hand we have a specialized anti armor unit that costs more than the generalist armor unit... it should absolutely crush the generalist... however if the SU-85 did 640 damage per shot it would be soo OP that it would literally destroy every other armored unit ingame in a 1v1... hence it is no longer beating the generalist armored unit alone but also more expensive anti armor specialists such as the JT or the elephant... the SU-85 is balanced right now because it strikes a balance between how much it costs and what it should counter... send a medium generalist at an SU-85? it should go poof... send a JT on an SU-85? expect the SU-85 to go poof.... Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 08:22 AMVipper Think you overestimating effect of the 0.6 difference is speed at vet 0. If that was the case SU-85 would completely own the PZIv once vetted the Panzer 4 has a powerful vet ability that causes it to run on overdrive... if we talk vet we also take into consideration its abilities.... Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 08:22 AMVipper That was in 2018 and the Stug got the same treatment. In the same patch it got a buff to its barrage. i dont remember the exact stats but i remember the SU getting nerfed first and getting nerfed harder Jump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 08:22 AMVipper Are you seriously going to argue that Puma being x130% better at ranges 0-10 gives it an advantage when Su-76 is x213% at range 50? when you take the turret smoke and vet ability advantage? yes of course... a puma will crush an SU-76 on a 1 on 1 easily... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Why Soviets are OP19 Oct 2020, 05:49 AM Jump back to quoted post18 Oct 2020, 08:45 AMVipper SU-76 has one of the best barrage in game once vetted for cost able to kill entities with first shot while firing at longer range than other barrages. The unit needs to have effectiveness reduced with timed or it would become spammable again since it is dirty cheap. i was recommending an upgrade similar to darkarmadillo`s suggestion of invest X amount of fuel and MP to add much needed survivability and a bit of DPS to the SU-85 in a similar sense to the sherman dozer.... Jump back to quoted post18 Oct 2020, 08:45 AMVipper Point here is that is should not make PzIV obsolete with a probability to damage (hit and penetrate) near 100% at range 60. If Su-85 was designed to counter Super heavy tank that would create space for the SU-76 to PzIV. the SU-85 should be a hard counter period... if you think a cheaper all purpose medium tank has any business defeating a more expensive tank destroyer then we can never come to a conclusion... the SU-85 has every right to crush the panzer 4 if they butt heads... Jump back to quoted post18 Oct 2020, 08:45 AMVipper SU-85 is fast enough and has the range to keep the PzIV away. In some it can completely shut it down. thats not how it works though... 1. the P4 can be used at sections of the map where the SU-85 isnt... even if the SU-85 moved at the speed of usain bolt theres no way it can catch the panzer 4 before it does some damage to infantry 2. german infantry can just crush through soviet infantry anyways and the SU-85 is forced to watch... ofc theres the katyusha but the germans have the equally dangerous panzerwerfer... Jump back to quoted post18 Oct 2020, 08:45 AMVipper That is because you mistakenly think that SU-76 was nerfed when last patched: it wasnt nerfed in that patch... it was nerfed a couple of patches ago where its reload rate was increased by 1 second... Jump back to quoted post18 Oct 2020, 08:45 AMVipper SU-76 firing on PzIV DPS=22.7/20.8/19.0/17.2/16.5/15.8/15.2 Puma firing on Cromwell DPS=29.3/29.3/22.4/16.5/11.4/7.3 Has more than double the DPS at range 60 that Puma has at range 50 while firing at more expensive vehicle. It does not have low DPS for cost. it is unfair to compare the SU-76 to the puma when the latter has a turret along with built in smoke and a strong vet 1 ability and at least some usefulness against infantry outside of its barrage... plus it has more close range DPS by nature of being a flanking tank... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Why Soviets are OP18 Oct 2020, 01:01 AM Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 23:35 PMVipper In late it uses its utility which is barrage. not good enough for most people... at least for the SU-76 Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 23:35 PMVipper Su-85 is slower at vet but faster at vet 3 but why on earth are you comparing a TD with tank? exactly the point... it should be good against the panzer 4 because its a tank DESTROYER.... complaining about the SU-85 being good against panzer 4s is like complaining that the brummbar is good vs infantry... Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 23:35 PMVipper The panther is faster than PvIV... you misunderstand... the panzer 4 can punish infantry alot more efficiently than a panther can... that plus the fact that its faster than an SU-85 makes it pretty easy to punish a soviet player... especially since the soviets dont have a functioning machinegun outside of doctrines Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 23:35 PMVipper The SU-85 does not need HVAP because it penetration is 312/299/286 at vet 2 which is higher than HVAP at vet 2. HVAP also boosts the damage dealt per shot... Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 23:35 PMVipper Its DPS is actually fine for cost. ehh no the SU-76 has pretty low DPS ever since it was nerfed... Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 23:35 PMVipper What exactly would you suggest? darkarmadillo`s suggestion of an SU-76M upgrade which boosted its HP and DPS was a pretty neat idea... the unit would most definitely scale better into the lategame while maintaining its current midgame power level.... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Why Soviets are OP17 Oct 2020, 22:23 PM Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 22:13 PMVipper The SU-76 is a good AT and is effective At when build in numbers with additional utility of barrage but loses any sort of lategame scaling and is extremely squishy... it also isnt put on high regard by many players and is rarely if ever used Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 22:13 PMVipper The SU-85 has one of the best guns in game with good accuracy good ROF and good penetration, selfspoting and broken reckon when tracking is combined with focus sight, lower XP value than cost and great Vet bonuses. It is OP. Should it be good vs Super heavies? yes Should it be good vs both Super heavies and PzIV? no should it be good against superheavies and panzer 4? yeah sure... its a turretless slow tank destroyer that is more expensive than a panzer 4 yet slower and is specialized against armor... the SU-85 actually fares worse against an ost player fielding panzer 4`s than it does against an ost player fielding panthers... the SU-85 is too slow to catch the panzer 4 and the panzer 4 can still punish infantry on the flanks and abuse the fact that the soviet infantry isnt exactly top dog... the only OP heavy tank destroyer around these parts is the main battle jackson which is turreted fast while having HVAP on top of its slightly lower DPS but still really good gun... Jump back to quoted post17 Oct 2020, 22:13 PMVipper Yet you have found minor problem with that stats of the unit... Give it to the UKF or OKW and see how cost efficient it actually is. yeah the squishyness and the relatively low DPS of the SU-76 are "minor stats" in your opinion... but that is not an opinion shared by alot of players who think the SU-76 needs more scaling... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Why Soviets are OP17 Oct 2020, 22:01 PM Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 20:10 PMVipper T-70 is OP most people agree with that and even without the T-70 the SU-76 just isnt that good of an AT unit on its own as the zis to SU-85 is self sufficient against armored threats... Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 20:10 PMVipper imo SU-85 is OP also. no it absolutely isnt... its just the counter to big heavy axis tanks from deleting everything thats why it seems like its OP... if you nerf the allied heavy TDs then the allies have absolutely 0 counters to axis heavy tanks... and the game will turn into a hodgepodge of axis only games Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 20:10 PMVipper Once more fixing the angle of the gun will not suddenly make SU-76 extremely popular. The unit is cost efficient. the unit is not cost efficient thats why it isnt popular Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 20:37 PMthedarkarmadillo id like to see the t70 toned down a bit and the su76 to get some upgrade or something at t4 to get it over the hump since late game its barrage often isnt enough to warrant its micro or pop cap given its durability. su76M upgrade (i know the model in game already is the su76M but i wont tell if you dont) turns the gun into a zis clone, maybe 80 more health? make it cost fuel and manpower. gives it a bit of scaling it sorely lacks this idea is actually really good... the SU-76 loses value during the lategame pretty fast... this change could actually make it alot more useful In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Why Soviets are OP16 Oct 2020, 19:55 PM Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 19:40 PMVipper Number 3 and 4 have nothing to with unit itself. Rotation values are 32/40 when stug has 28/33.6 and JP IV has 20/24 so it better than other casemates. i was referring to the rotation of the gun... afaik it has like 5 degrees arc Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 19:40 PMVipper That leaves 400 HP vs 560 of Stug III which again is not that bad considering cost and tech cost. ehh they mostly cost around the same though the stug is pricier... but the stug has a large DPS armor and HP advantage in exchange for 10 range... imo the stug still remains well suited for the role of deleting or denying the lategame massed TD strategy of the allies...the SU-76 however mostly doesnt have a role being overshadowed by the SU-85... Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 19:40 PMVipper As pointed the unit is cost efficient as is and it not used because other option are simply better. exactly... but those other options arent overperforming (maybe except the zis) soo premise 2 is satisfied... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Why Soviets are OP16 Oct 2020, 19:30 PM Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 18:53 PMVipper Su-85 and SU-76 do not fill the same role. Su-85 can counter all vehicles. SU-76 is a medium TD with added utility of barrage. hence the term similar role... both units are tank destroyers at their core but one unit is not used because it is simply not efficient... Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 18:53 PMVipper This theoretical debate is fine but you have not yet identified a single problem with SU-76. (one of the few problem the units has is its cone of fire.) 1. rotation 2. killed in 3 shots 3. outshone by the T-70 4. not really needed since the SU-85 kills heavy tanks while the zis can work as a stopgap In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Why Soviets are OP16 Oct 2020, 18:15 PM Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 17:23 PMVipper Actually it could be an indication but hardly proof, since it depend on how cost efficient/useful it is compered to alternatives. it kinda does if either premises are met... say the unspammed unit is U and the used/efficient unit is E 1. no unit E exists to fill the exact same role as unit U.. yet U is still not used because it is immensely cost inefficient to use 2. unit E is considered balanced while U fills a relatively similar role to E however gets eclipsed by the superior unit in the case of the SU-76 the second premise is true since the SU-85 is considered mostly balanced (at least being the most balanced of the heavy tank destroyers) while the SU-76 fills a similar role but doesnt have much going for it so it gets eclipsed... In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Why Soviets are OP16 Oct 2020, 16:21 PM Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 16:17 PMSpoof Seriously? What's with people claiming the ZiS is UP? It's like a Pak in terms of AT power but with just a slightly slower fire rate. SU76 and (maybe) M5 really need buffs, so T70 can finally get a well deserved nerf and Sov T3 can finally exist for a purpose other than the T70. the ZIS could use a price nerf... which means increasing its price... Jump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 16:17 PMVipper Su-76 see generally fine for cost. If it does not see allot of action has to do with the alternatives and not the unit. the fact that its barely used is proof that the unit needs some help In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Why Soviets are OP16 Oct 2020, 15:24 PM while this is subjective the brummbar is still superior due to its AOE... the fact that you dont see SU-76s alot lately is just a sign that the SU-76 needs help more than anything... the zis well... the zis could use a price nerf honestly In: COH2 Balance