Profile of Protos Angelus

I'm rank 60 something (lvl 17) and as USF I have got about 6 control groups.
1) rifles + captain (only bars)
2) Echelons [+ maybe ranger] (only zooks)
3) tanks (pershing or E8 or M4)
4) Jacksons
5) paks how
6) maybe AA HT if it survives rigels and raketen (or AT gun, depending on enemy lineup)

And as I play 3 rifles into captain build on USF I have all those 4 units on my bind 1.
Now, I never send them in as a literal blob. I usually send them in and using TAB, I cycle and send them to different points/buildings/abilities/covers. Is this considered a blob? They are not clumped up, neither do they focus down one target at a time (if possible I try to focus only one target to make it retreat, rahter then spread out the DPS). Is this still considered blobbing? The spread-outness results in me never having to retreat everyone and lose map control but I do attack or flank -- in waves. Is that blobbing?

What do you mean, “E8 in no universe can take on a panther 1v1?” Are you saying we can’t buff the E8 because it would be historically inaccurate? In this game, I don’t think historical accuracy is a valid argument as there are many extremely inaccurate things already in the game.

Also, what do you mean, “there would be no point in going for an AT gun next to Jackson.” Nowhere in my post did I mention AT guns or the Jackson.
If the point you were trying to make was that no one would buy this reworked E8 over the Jackson, I don’t believe this is the case. This is because if we look at the example of OKW players, we don’t see them exclusively building either the Jadpanzer or the panther.

No no, not historical accuracy. This game is anything but historically accurate. I'm talking about the fact that it shouldn't counter it because of asymmetry. You are right that my point was "Why go E8 next to jackson".

My personal idea for an E8 would be just to buff it's AI power. It wouldn't be able to take on panther but would be good in combined arms with one jackson and you'd get a tank besides the dozer that can handle infantry.

So to sum up E8 would be able to:
- Take on infantry
- Take on mediums
- With it's good mobility take on forward positions and heavies

Right now it can take on medium and heavies.
You'd add power vs team weapons and infantry (with AI buff)

I don't think USF needs a tank to take on a Panther. That would in my opinion lead to symmetrical balancing which is not what COH2 is about. That's my point.

Also @Loren made a good point. How to achieve balance without detriment is now a good question.
Buff HP? Buff AI power? Buff both + price? Would that lead to an expensive but OP unit? I honestly do not know. In my view, AI buff would do the trick, but I could be wrong

I think the main issue is not the bazookas and the lack of availability for elite bazookas, but the ATG.

SOV and UKF have two high penetration units: Their ATG and the heavy TD. To counter mediums, these factions can rely on their ATGs which allows to make their heavy TDs more vulnerable in some regards (casemate, slow ROF and movement). Against Panthers and heavier units, both units work absolutely fine.
But USF does not have that. Additionally, the mediums of the Axis factions are quite different in armor. Bazookas and especially elite ones work okay against the OST P4, not so much though against OKW's P4. Similarly, they are unreliable against Panthers, a fact which is also true for their ATG. So in the end to reliably counter a Panther, USF relies on building a vehicle themselves, the Jackson. All other factions could get another PaK to defend against a Panther after loosing their heavy TD or simply already having invested into a Sherman. USF still can't, even if officers get elite bazookas. The combo of Cromwell/6-Pounder or T34/ZiS can work against Panthers and OKW P4, Sherman/57mm does not work that great.

And before anyone mentions it: Yes, you can dump munitions into your ATG to make it really good against heavies, but in the end this only get's you so far in a faction that lacks mines and can lose snares in the late game after infantry wipes.

Jackson is the only unit holding USF's late game together. Any serious nerf - as reasonable as it might be from a design point of view - would probably kill this faction.


So in conclusion:
Touching the Jackson is a difficult unit, because USF relies on it to shut down heavy tanks. The current performance level of USF's late game AT capabilities seems mostly fine in my eyes. But heavier nerfs to the Jackson (especially it's potential against heavy units) probably cannot be compensated by having a bit better bazookas that work semi-reliably against mediums on 1-2 squads, because these bazookas could not fill the gap in the anti-heavy department. I think USF's anti medium power could stem a nerfed Jackson, but the anti-heavy department could not.

Thank you. Finally somebody that gets it. The whole faction is designed around the Jackson and people confuse that for "Being OP". Furthremore, you can't compare squads with zooks with vehicles. No matter how elite, werfer, stuka, MGs, mines can easily deny any infantry advance. Then there is also the zook range. It's not a far reaching AT rifle.

Nerf Jackson reload? A single panther can dive it (+ lack of reliable mines on USF)
Nerf penetration? Heavies roll over.
Nerf HP? LoL
Nerf Armour? It's already the lowest it can be for a tank so no point.
Nerf range? Elefant goes BRRRR even more. Panther goes BRRRR. Stug goes BRRR.

And to top all of that. Rifles need vet1 for a slow firing, long reload snare.

Whatever you nerf on Jackson, you kill the teamgame potential of USF and remember that teamgames are still all about heavy tanks, stukas, werfers and elite non doctrinal axis infantry and even mainlane infantry with MG42s (like cheap ostruppen which excel in cover, which is pretty much everywhere usually in teamgames).

You can't really expect to go vs Panther with a nerfed Jackson that can't keep it at range. An expensive tank, but still the best tank hunter in the game. Can solo take on any Ally heavy tank due to high armour, hp and penetration.

Imo most of the doctrinal USF tanks are very similar. If it were up to me I would:

Bulldozer Sherman (medium Brawler)
Make it a separate unit (no more upgrade)
Change its name to to M4A3(W) bulldozer and give it 960hp (wet ammo justifies higher HP)
Remove HE shells
Idea: medium tank brawler, like the KV1

76mm Sherman (premium medium)
Idea: just a better, but more expensive Sherman, like the T34/85

M4A3E8 (AT brawler)
Renamed to M4A3E8(W) and increased HP to 800
Reload reduced to match the panther
Increased near penetration
Main gun AOE removed
Idea: Make it so the Easy eight can 1v1 the panther, where the Easy eight wins of it can get close while the panther wins at range

E8 would still be useless as there would be no point in going for an AT gun next to Jackson. E8 in no universe can take on a Panther 1v1, no matter what range. Don't know about the bulldozer change since I don't play dozer much but E8 from my experience should get a slight increase in AOE to match closer to stock mediums and be a doctrinal premium jack of all trades which loses to Panther but can be useful when massed and preserved to reliably take on armour. With a corresponding price increase.

Right now E8 can take on P4s and that's it. Even en masse it has troubles vs Panther due to 165 or 200 penetration vs 270 Panther armour (61% and 74% chance of penetrating combine with 960 HP = costly engagement but no dead panther). You'd think that it would be useful vs infantry but it's not. Only thing I find it good for is the run n gun medium tank hunt (HVSS suspension).

Even if you know you will be facing P4 rush, E8 is in a such a terrible commander that it's just sad. Echelon flame upgrade negates the double zook for mediums and kills the range on zook since the range of flamethrower is low (they always get as close so that each squad member is in range) and if you're force to put zooks on rifles, you lose a lot of AI firepower which E8 won't replace.
The combined arms is also a double edged sword since unless you are a micro-God, the 125 muni combined arms can cost you dearly vs Stukas and Werfers.
Rifles sandbags + mines are good only for the mines on chokes and the expensive (I think 120 muni) phosphorous smoke is good only for clearing out a building or one MG position. Good tank with identity crisis put in a terrible commander.


This is just my view of the E8. USF is a good faction but this one commander is just terrible.

There it is! The UP rant!

Seriously though, why should pgren "lose" to riflemen? Because they do already in 6/10 situations.

They shouldn't and they don't. Only time Pgrens lose vs rifles is when rifles have double bars (280 + 120 should win in that situation). One BAR it's even. Of course, if PGs take panzershrecks they lose AI capability. I don't see it as an UP rant. It's just factual. Pgrens are elite and as such they do win vs Rifles. Nothing wrong about that. But they are usually best used as a sneaky bomb throw. That s*** can wipe nicely! The infantry combat in this game is pretty well balanced. Even more so if you include the "asymmetry" as a baseline.