Its more than possible for sturms to rush across no cover into a con and CE in green cover (that's 240+170=410mp and 10 models) and win that fight. Let alone if the OKW player went for full aggression and no capping allowing for the next okw unit to follow up as quickly as possible. A pair of WFA infantry or WFA infantry in cover will beat them up pretty badly, but let's not pretend that's the only match up there is.
So if you're not capping and he's not capping, what's the difference? When he eventually retreats he needs to spend one year running back to base, while you get back to yours in 15 seconds. Mainly though I'd suggest sending your CE to cap elsewhere instead of using CE as mainline infantry.
I think the name "combat engineer" confuses too many people. They're primarily utility/engineering units. Without considering the flamethrower, I use CEs to wire, sweep and lay mines, repair vehicles, and cap less traversed areas of the map. It's the same as the Rear Echelon "problem". Some players simply don't understand the role of a utility unit, and expect REs to hold their own vs Grens and Volks.
Sturmpios are tough enough to hold the line as early/mid game assault units but in exchange they cost 80% more mp. When a sturmpio is using up his squad time sweeping/laying mines, wiring, and repairing vehicles, you're basically using a 300mp unit to do the same thing a 170mp unit does. By mid-game, the sturmpio will be overtaxed, and coupled with the increased cost, those are the counterbalances to the early game superiority the squad enjoys. |
|
Should start with Obers instead. |
I had a question that relates to these parts of your posts:
I'm not sure how to adapt to the new tech changes to USF. Are people typically getting both Lt and Cpt before getting a Mjr, or are they going Lt, Mjr, then backteching to Cpt? Before the tech changes I chose one or the other due to the cost. Is it now cheap enough to get both without being too far behind? Lastly, is stuart or AA halftrack better against OKW in your opinion?
Hi Zackman, for me I used to love LT with AAHT a lot, but in the old patch I simply couldn't handle Luchs bleed so I had to go Captain (which meant I wouldn't have much of an infantry advantage).
The new patch has changed that quite a bit, against OKW I find LT with 50 cals to deal with volks blobs, and Stuart to hard-counter Luchs the perfect choice. If he won too much of the early game though, Captain with early AT gun for the Luchs, into a slightly slower AAHT would be a better choice. Then I'd try to snowball into an early Sherman to aggressively take territory/wipe squads. When his P4 comes out I'll play more defensively and stall for Jackson.
I think rushing for Major makes more sense if you're around even or ahead with the early game into LT snowball play, while if you're falling behind, Cpt defensive play makes more sense. Your doctrine choice also makes a HUGE difference. If you're going for Mechanised, Major Rush for the 76mm Sherman would be good. If you're going something with only stock Shermans (which are great vs infantry but not so vs armour), you have to assess the fuel and resource control situation. The beauty of the rts genre is in reading and adapting to situations as they unfold 
On some maps (and against opponents who create lots of engagements), I go for the old Heavy Cav route. LT + Cpt into Pershing, then slowly backtech for Jackson and Scott.
Hope this helps! |
Background
Hello all, I have struggled playing against OKW for quite some time now, especially when I play as USF. I thought it was about time to ask for help. I feel like I have lost countless games to them because of similar early game plays that just snowball into huge advantages later on. I just don't understand OKW and how to go about countering them. I gave playing OKW a try to understand them better, but it really didn't help that much. They just seem like a faction that is very good early game AND late game. It further confuses me when I read Relic's infographic covering factions because it talks about how they are supposed to be a very aggressive, early game faction, yet they can get essentially everything the Wehr (a late game faction) can in the vehicle department. They can even get a tiger regardless of the commander they pick!
My Experience
A typical game against OKW in 1v1 as USF goes like this:
I cap towards my fuel using engineer, get a rifle to cap points alongside my engineers, get another rifle to support them in case of a sturmpioneer attack, then get a third rifle into an ambulance before teching.
Problem is, when I get my third rifleman squad out, my opponent is already preparing to send a few volks with the sturmpioneer straight to my cut off. I attempt to consolidate all my units to try and stop it while using cover, then I lose and retreat my rifles one at a time as they are getting torn apart. (this part goes many ways depending on the map) they take my cut off and camp it, building sandbags quickly. This is followed by volks in green cover blocking me into my base and essentially forcing me onto the other side of the map. They have usually built a kubel by then and capped their side of the map too. Once they realize I'm going to the other side, they just combine their units and blob to the other side to stop me when my guys are spread out trying to cap to the fuel.
Fast forward a bit, I'm getting bullied nearly the entire game losing cutoffs for fuel, trying to make use of light vehicles and different tools at my disposal with little success, especially if my opponent goes with luchs (combined with an AT gun, it almost makes teching for light vehicles feel pointless). I am so behind on fuel at this point. Even if I did have fuel, USF mid and late game armor is so weak compared to Wehr vehicles (which, again, OKW has too), which is to be expected by design.
My Question(s)
So at what point is USF supposed to be at an advantage during the game against OKW? I am not calling for a buff/nerf or saying anything is op, I am just trying to understand the design of the faction better and be a better player. I am looking for both general (about OKW's design) and specific (using USF to counter OKW in 1v1 games) advice. I have read posts about how USF can steamroll OKW by blobbing with bars, but do I really have to blob to win against OKW? I don't enjoy blobbing, but is that really supposed to be the solution?
Have you heard about our lord and saviour Heavy Cavalry?
To answer your question: Mid-game and late-game are when USF is supposed to win the game. USF is no longer hyper-vulnerable to light vehicle rushes, since the LT tier gives you the Stuart and getting the Captain for the AT gun is now very cheap. USF vs OKW is all about surviving the early OKW aggression and preventing a LV snowball. The way you're struggling though, you sound like you'd have the same problem with holding off a Grens push with an MG42 behind it, into Flame HT for the game-ender. The situation you describe was pretty prevalent last patch, but it's been mitigated heavily by the addition of commanders that break early OKW dominance - mechanised and armour, as well as by the reduction of tech costs to get the officers and support weapons out. As Joshua mentioned, the mid-late game of USF infantry supremacy before Obers get to Vet 2 is where you should try to get wipes and inflict serious bleed on your opponent.
Rushing for a Sherman is a lot more feasible now because of tech revamp, or you can call-in a Sherman Dozer with the Armour Company, which while obviously not as powerful as a Brummbar, comes much earlier and is much cheaper, and enjoys a very comfortable window of dominance before Panthers hit the field. Pershing and Jackson are more than a match for Panther and P4, while the new 76mm Sherman is extremely cost-effective and has a superb HVAP ability which lets it easily trounce OKW P4s in 1v1 matchups despite costing less, so I'm not sure why you're struggling in the late game armour department.
In short, you need to work on holding off early aggression (improve your early game) and learning to use your vehicles better (late game). |
Thread: OKW 22118 Dec 2018, 14:49 PM
Soooo, you are not capping points before 10th minute?
And having ATG on field before light tanks arrive ENSURES oppoent will be much less aggressive with that light, giving you more breathing room.
Also, what the hell you are going on about with the resource on AT upgrade?
You're trying to refer to USF and UKF need to research racks?
You do realize that directly impacts timing of tech and lights in early game, while getting puppchen does not in the slightest AND allows you to have a hardcounter for these lights as well?
Genuine question, have you ever played 1v1 or 2v2 at rank better then 500? Because by denying usefulness of rakketen in completely shutting down shock light vehicle play in very early game(M3, UC and now dodge) making opponent waste resources for nothing AND allowing you to have a capper AND already on field ATG when its needed, you talk like someone who wasn't even close to that.
How on earth does raketen "completely" shut down light vehicle play? 60% accuracy at long range against stationary targets, collision with terrain, and super long aim time which allows light vehicles to get out of the arc before the rak even fires.
The rak is important because it's the only counter to shock light vehicles, not an easy auto-win as you claim. I've abused clown car for ridiculous bleed/map control against numerous top 100 opponents (around my level, so it's not a skill-gap issue) even with them going raketen as 4th or 5th unit. You speak as if t0 AT gun was some wondrous blessing, when the fact is that it's a must-have for OKW to even play the game. The reason Allies don't get T0 AT Gun is because Axis doesn't get a UC or a clown car equivalent - if they did, Allies would need a T0 AT Gun too.
How did the opponent waste resources for nothing? The scout car or UC will inflict bleed no matter what. It forced the OKW player to waste 270mp that delays their next Volks. You claim getting a 270mp non-fighting, non-engineer unit "will not impact timing and tech in the slightest. 270mp is more than 1 minute's worth of manpower income, which is enough to reduce the Luch or Flak HT's window before T70/Stuart/AEC to pretty much nothing. The rak can occasionally cap 1 or 2 points AFTER you've won a big engagement, but you're going to have to keep building volks after that raketen to even win fights. A 270mp capping unit that loses to a CE squad, and for the next 5 to 10 minutes just bleeds and feeds veterancy is regarded as "no opportunity cost" by you, somehow. As seen in GCS2, some top players try to go 4 volks without raketen simply because the opportunity cost of getting an early AT gun is fairly significant, which is something you completely brushed aside.
The thing is, I actually agree with your earlier post(s) that the 221 shouldn't be a powerful shock/bleed unit because Allies lack the early game counters. Somehow though this post has delved once again to your irrational (and incorrect) obsession with hurdurrr T0 AT gun so stronk arhmerhgerd. |
|
I too get infuriated when my 260/280mp low tech unit can't single-handedly defeat 3 squads of 340mp 80 muni units that come out of T4 at the 12+ min mark.
Balance is truly fked, thanks Relic. |
|
It IS power creep. The new 76mm Sherman is absurd and makes the EZ8 look uncompetitive. The EZ8 was already a pretty good generalist tank similar to the T34-85, with less AI power but better armour and pen than the T34-85. Its stats were MUCH better than a regular Sherman's, which made it a very feasible option. The EZ8 was already pretty good, but you won't ever choose "pretty good" when you can get the best damn tank in the game, along with sandbags and smoke and Rangers.
The fact that the 76C Sherman got buffed so much makes the EZ8 look bad, and REs no longer have a monopoly on flamers, so that's the whole point Shadowlink was making.
Rifle Co wasn't popular because it only had 2 abilities, both of which were pretty good - RE Flamers and Ez8s. If you want to look at doctrines that have been in A++ tier since forever, Guard Motor, Spec Ops, Heavy Cav come to mind. The commonality between them is that many/most of the abilities range from pretty good to downright insane.
Rifle Co isn't the problem - power creep is. Nerfing all the overperforming doctrines will do better for balance and variety than the constant cycle of buffing things to "keep up with the Joneses". |
|
I find that the tech change has made USF incredibly competitive, which is excellent for the competitive 1v1 mode.
In fact, I now find USF difficult to deal with as OKW and OKW easy to deal with when I play USF. It has simply turned the whole matchup on its head.
Sherman rush is very viable because you're not defenseless like in the past - you have both hmg and AT gun easily available.
None of the tiers make you vulnerable - LT used to get raped by Luchs and Captain used to get raped by infantry, which was the key turning point in the previous matchup - early game pressure into a mid-game snowball that prevented the USF late game from materialising.
Now LT has zook + stuart to counter Luchs and 50 cal for infantry.
Captain has BAR + AAHT to deal with infantry and has AT gun for LVs.
I actually dislike the Commander changes but that's not the point of this thread. Thumbs up for the USF tech revamp in my book! |
after watching this how can you say KT needs buff?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iet6Nk_ZFkk
Did you actually watch the video? Or did you just randomly choose a video in which someone used a King Tiger and coincidentally also won the game? Throughout the 25 mins it was on the field, the point was proven repeatedly that its scatter is/was horrendous. The KT spent numerous shots shooting the dirt, sometimes getting 0 models even at 10 range and stationary. It took forever to vet up even with HEAT rounds and Panzer Commander and constant sturmpio support. I watched it for more than 30 mins and it didn't wipe a single infantry squad. It never got a single one-shot decrew on any team weapon. His opponent didn't build a single tank destroyer until 20 mins after the KT was seen, and the first time he used the Firefly it was on its own at 20 range vs a vetted King Tiger.
And that's exactly the point - even in the hands of a player like Jove and with the right doctrine pick, AND with a passive opponent who didn't try to encircle/flank the KT with medium tanks OR try to build a tank destroyer to kite it at range, the KT achieved very little.
It won several 1v1 long-ranged fights against Cromwell and won a short range fight vs a Firefly, but that's something even a P4 can do. Not sure how winning a 20 range engagement vs a single vet 0 Firefly which didn't fire Tulips or trading max range stationary shots vs a single Cromwell is indicative of anything.
Panzer Commander giving it arty made it able to counter AT guns, but that'd have been true with the Panther or P4 anyway. |
Yeah pretty much all the usual suspects have pitched in on this thread. Tried the Cavalry riflemen and they're nothing amazing. Especially compared to Thompson rangers, airborne or shocks.
I don't think they're amazing either, tbh. They're not elite infantry though, they cost 280mp and come at 1cp, so probably not fair to compare them to true elite infantry. |
钢盔
FelixTHM
Demonslayer
FelixTHM
Relic Entertainment
보드카 중대 
