So people are still okay with Sturmpios?

@sluzbenik

Blobbing at someone with SturmPios and Volks as early as possible is going to do nothing but get your Sturms focus fired and killed before they do anything if the allied player has a few braincells to rub together.

There is plenty of early nuance to using and fighting against Sturms. Sight Blockers, flanks, even intercepting a new unit coming out of spawn. While on the defensive side you can back up and force him to overextend into a larger force, flank his volks yourself while his sturms are getting in position, or even take an unorthodox approach to the map to bamboozle his early game aggression entirely.

You might prefer the Wehrmacht engagement but saying that OKW early game is brainless blobbing is disingenuous. It's simply different and it's okay to prefer one over the other. In any sense it's important to know how to deal with both regardless of which you prefer.

@sluzbenik

Blobbing at someone with SturmPios and Volks as early as possible is going to do nothing but get your Sturms focus fired and killed before they do anything if the allied player has a few braincells to rub together.

There is plenty of early nuance to using and fighting against Sturms. Sight Blockers, flanks, even intercepting a new unit coming out of spawn. While on the defensive side you can back up and force him to overextend into a larger force, flank his volks yourself while his sturms are getting in position, or even take an unorthodox approach to the map to bamboozle his early game aggression entirely.

You might prefer the Wehrmacht engagement but saying that OKW early game is brainless blobbing is disingenuous. It's simply different and it's okay to prefer one over the other. In any sense it's important to know how to deal with both regardless of which you prefer.

Oh, yes, I'll just make an M3 with a flamer because that's classy and strategic. Then I can just chase his sturms back to base till they die.

Never mind, I'm just bored of the game and the 5 year old mechanics.

What an argument, especially when it comes from a moderator (spokesman)from this site. Keep it up man, that will encourage people to join this site and this community.

There's a difference between a rank 50 and rank 5000 asking for nerfs/buffs. The higher the rank typically coincides with less knowledge of the game and its mechanics. Asking for something that would help determine where someone is on this scale isn't offensive, your perception of it is.

There's a difference between a rank 50 and rank 5000 asking for nerfs/buffs. The higher the rank typically coincides with less knowledge of the game and its mechanics. Asking for something that would help determine where someone is on this scale isn't offensive, your perception of it is.

I'd say its pretty offensive when the extent of your entire post besides that question was "yep". And its a newer member of the community. And you're a mod....

I'd say its pretty offensive when the extent of your entire post besides that question was "yep". And its a newer member of the community. And you're a mod....

Subjective ^

anyways lets stay on topic

Subjective

Talking to people is subjective. That's the whole point. But whatever you say...

Here's another way to ask the question about sturms, does OKW need them as a starter? What would be so horrible about them starting with Volks instead?

Not saying they wouldn't need to adjust starting MP or some other things, but Sturm opening has always felt dumb when Pios, CEs, and REs are 3 of the other starters.

Talking to people is subjective. That's the whole point. But whatever you say...

Here's another way to ask the question about sturms, does OKW need them as a starter? What would be so horrible about them starting with Volks instead?

Not saying they wouldn't need to adjust starting MP or some other things, but Sturm opening has always felt dumb when Pios, CEs, and REs are 3 of the other starters.

Dumb? May I ask you what do you mean here?

As long as Relic give OKW some resource in return and reduce the building time of Sturmpion, I am totally fine with Volk start.

Dumb? May I ask you what do you mean here?

As long as Relic give OKW some resource in return and reduce the building time of Sturmpion, I am totally fine with Volk start.

Compare cost/performance of Combat Engineers, Pioneers, and Rear Echelon with Sturms. Since your starter unit is "free", I don't see why OKW should get such a strong squad for free. They have the strongest starter, and they can rush it wherever they want because they don't need to use infantry to connect all their territory.

Someone earlier said its not really OP, its just bad design. That's kinda what I'm playing at. The openings of the other 4 factions just seem like they require a lot more thinking/micro.

Rear echelons suck = sturmpios OP?

Why does UKF start with an infantry section squad instead of an engineer squad? There are many "why" in this game, but keep in mind, Stumpioneers aren't a big threat as long as you keep your troops together. In the early game, you can also put your lone squad (be it Riflemen, Cons or Tommies) in garrison and see it dealing with Stumpioneers very well. I have done it, many people have done it and they keep doing it. Again, Stumpioneers are NOT a big deal.

Every time you ask yourself a "why" question like that, the answer is going to faction assymetry aimed at making the game more diverse.

When it comes to initial/builder units, the design thought is pretty obvious. First two faction create a gold standard for such units with their versatile builder/repair units. These two units differ of course, like in case of their cost, building options, weapon profiles and sight range, but similarities between create kind of a standard set of features that DLC factions are supposed to variate around. In effect:
- USF gets crew repair and self building base buildings, reducing their initial engineer unit to support role,
- OKW gets expensive, combat potent unit that forces time management problems on the players, as in deciding whether it is better to keep it on the frontline or build mines and fortifications or repair behind.
- UKF as the latest faction differs from the standard more than any other, it gets mainline infantry as first unit and the repair unit is only available further in the tech tree.

Rear echelons suck = sturmpios OP?

No. Man its stuff like this that makes me wanna stop posting here, I specifically tried NOT to ****ing say that Sturms were OP. I just don't like them as a starting unit. RE performane is fine, sturm performance is fine (based on their cost). All I don't understand is why 3 factions get a 170mp, 200mp, and 210mp starter, and one that has the ability to connect territory with a vehicle gets a 300mp assault unit.

My point was clearly much more specific than "sturm OP plz nerf". This place gives me a ****ing migraine

@sluzbenik

Blobbing at someone with SturmPios and Volks as early as possible is going to do nothing but get your Sturms focus fired and killed before they do anything if the allied player has a few braincells to rub together.

There is plenty of early nuance to using and fighting against Sturms. Sight Blockers, flanks, even intercepting a new unit coming out of spawn. While on the defensive side you can back up and force him to overextend into a larger force, flank his volks yourself while his sturms are getting in position, or even take an unorthodox approach to the map to bamboozle his early game aggression entirely.

You might prefer the Wehrmacht engagement but saying that OKW early game is brainless blobbing is disingenuous. It's simply different and it's okay to prefer one over the other. In any sense it's important to know how to deal with both regardless of which you prefer.

Its more than possible for sturms to rush across no cover into a con and CE in green cover (that's 240+170=410mp and 10 models) and win that fight. Let alone if the OKW player went for full aggression and no capping allowing for the next okw unit to follow up as quickly as possible. A pair of WFA infantry or WFA infantry in cover will beat them up pretty badly, but let's not pretend that's the only match up there is.

Its more than possible for sturms to rush across no cover into a con and CE in green cover (that's 240+170=410mp and 10 models) and win that fight. Let alone if the OKW player went for full aggression and no capping allowing for the next okw unit to follow up as quickly as possible. A pair of WFA infantry or WFA infantry in cover will beat them up pretty badly, but let's not pretend that's the only match up there is.

If you're running Cons you'll have a second con almost ready to go, then you can just backup til he hits combat.

Result is the same, execution is just a little different to account for cons being cheap and crappy pre-vet and combat engies not having their flamethrower yet.

Regardless, the point was the braindead run Sturmpio at opponent and win through sheer faceblob power thing doesn't apply if your opponent isn't a moron. If you just mindless march your sturm forward it will eventually lose models to attrition and bleed you needlessly.

No. Man its stuff like this that makes me wanna stop posting here, I specifically tried NOT to ****ing say that Sturms were OP. I just don't like them as a starting unit. RE performane is fine, sturm performance is fine (based on their cost). All I don't understand is why 3 factions get a 170mp, 200mp, and 210mp starter, and one that has the ability to connect territory with a vehicle gets a 300mp assault unit.

My point was clearly much more specific than "sturm OP plz nerf". This place gives me a ****ing migraine

I feel your pain man =(

If you're running Cons you'll have a second con almost ready to go, then you can just backup til he hits combat.

Result is the same, execution is just a little different to account for cons being cheap and crappy pre-vet and combat engies not having their flamethrower yet.

Regardless, the point was the braindead run Sturmpio at opponent and win through sheer faceblob power thing doesn't apply if your opponent isn't a moron. If you just mindless march your sturm forward it will eventually lose models to attrition and bleed you needlessly.

If you built a building and a con for map control then no, you won't have another unit up. And why shouldn't 10 models accounting for 410mp be a threat to a 300mp unit? Soviet t0 is so trash that out manning and out spending and holding favorable positioning isn't enough to combat a starter unit, you need to have vet and munitions that arnt possible to have yet. In order to beat a single unsupported enemy starter unit...

Its more than possible for sturms to rush across no cover into a con and CE in green cover (that's 240+170=410mp and 10 models) and win that fight.

That is very much not true. Obviously its "possible", but lets agree that EXTREMELY unlikely occurences are effectively impossible. I would guess sturms would win that kind of fight less than 2/100 times. Seriously, that kind of statement is not at all reflective of how these units actually perform (A standard m4a3 sherman is probably more likely to 1v1 a panther). In fact, id say cons alone could beat sturms in that scenario at least 10% of the time, being conservative.

Every time you ask yourself a "why" question like that, the answer is going to faction assymetry aimed at making the game more diverse.

When it comes to initial/builder units, the design thought is pretty obvious. First two faction create a gold standard for such units with their versatile builder/repair units. These two units differ of course, like in case of their cost, building options, weapon profiles and sight range, but similarities between create kind of a standard set of features that DLC factions are supposed to variate around. In effect:
- USF gets crew repair and self building base buildings, reducing their initial engineer unit to support role,
- OKW gets expensive, combat potent unit that forces time management problems on the players, as in deciding whether it is better to keep it on the frontline or build mines and fortifications or repair behind.
- UKF as the latest faction differs from the standard more than any other, it gets mainline infantry as first unit and the repair unit is only available further in the tech tree.

Yeah, well i know that, this is why i picked UKF as an example. Stumpioneers are fine, even if i was scared of them when i started playing this game. Each faction has something unique, and in OKW's case is the starting engineer squad which can melt mainline infantry and put some aggression. That's it. Other than that they are just a normal engineer squad.

I feel your pain man =(

Agreed, how much time gets wasted because of twisting each other's words and trying to actually get to the point.

Its more than possible for sturms to rush across no cover into a con and CE in green cover (that's 240+170=410mp and 10 models) and win that fight. Let alone if the OKW player went for full aggression and no capping allowing for the next okw unit to follow up as quickly as possible. A pair of WFA infantry or WFA infantry in cover will beat them up pretty badly, but let's not pretend that's the only match up there is.

So if you're not capping and he's not capping, what's the difference? When he eventually retreats he needs to spend one year running back to base, while you get back to yours in 15 seconds. Mainly though I'd suggest sending your CE to cap elsewhere instead of using CE as mainline infantry.

I think the name "combat engineer" confuses too many people. They're primarily utility/engineering units. Without considering the flamethrower, I use CEs to wire, sweep and lay mines, repair vehicles, and cap less traversed areas of the map. It's the same as the Rear Echelon "problem". Some players simply don't understand the role of a utility unit, and expect REs to hold their own vs Grens and Volks.

Sturmpios are tough enough to hold the line as early/mid game assault units but in exchange they cost 80% more mp. When a sturmpio is using up his squad time sweeping/laying mines, wiring, and repairing vehicles, you're basically using a 300mp unit to do the same thing a 170mp unit does. By mid-game, the sturmpio will be overtaxed, and coupled with the increased cost, those are the counterbalances to the early game superiority the squad enjoys.