I stopped reading at "they are spammable"
You can tell when somebody make wrong assumptions because he gets assblasted by a single unit.
Penals are spammable, really now?
Penals need their design changed, but since you're gonna base your idea around penals being spammable, I'd rather not read any further.
Don't know if you like 3vs3 or 4vs4 games. If so, you know the problem. You only force penals allowing them to become same cancer unit than old Volks-Blobbs with Schreck. Only with more brake trough character.
They are balanced in 1vs1, broken in other game modes. For me, there is no other unit ingame get sucb a boost by team-mates. One mortar with smoke by e. g. us and the first buildi g for hmg42 is destroyed, cant shoot through the shot-blocker. You have to bundle = easy tragets by mkrtar or even mkre penal bombs. It is simply broken, and that at moment of first 45mun. And the scenario doesn't end here, now enemy gets ptrs to counter only things achse can build now. Get a T70 and gg. And that is no l2p, simply the team-bonus.
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You present a lot of things as givens when theyre actually just generally not true. There is no consensus or general belief that penals are too good. Always make sure your assumptions and given points are true before you move on to your actual talking points.
More concerning than that though are your solutions. Option 2 is so out of left field and random. If theyre overperforming for their cost, then how does making their satchel absurdly expensive fix any of that? It would also be one of the most pointless nerfs this game has seen as the satchel is hardly used anyway.
Option 1 is actually a buff... Penal svts already perform very similarly to volksgrenadier rifles (DPS wise), except for the fact the svts have a slightly better performance at close range, so its close to a neutral change. Gren g43s on the other hand have a noticeably higher close range performance, and absurd moving performance.
That are also things I was thinking about.
1. There are some other discussions about penals or indirect. So there is a problem with them. Also in my opinion some units now are in a bad spot we can buff passive. e.g. the OKW-base survivability etc.
2. To be fair, the hole unit isn't needed. If cobat-engineers would get the PTRS-upgrade and Conscripts would get some mid-game buffs.
3. That is then the question of balancing. But yes, my idea is to make them more long-range. That would also be a passive buff for Ostheer-Pioneers. By giving them a AI upgrade to become something like they are now.
Edit:
The AI upgrade can also replace all weapons with the currenc penal-gun. By 30mun and T3/4 needed. So simply the timing will be reduced of the penals we know.
And instead of increasig the price of the bomb we can nerf it. So you need 5-6 to destroy a OKW base.
Overall, it is not more than an adjustment like back in time, putting HMG42 into T0. |
You’re still missing the point that 5 range is literally less than half of the length of a tank. It’s not enough to use effectively period. Even as it is now, you don’t have to go that far forward to be able to fire on TDs (it’s obviously enough to make it a bit difficult but still), and at the end of the day, TDs are supposed to counter heavies, not the other way around.
Current allii-tankhunters are countering everything. Having same range as a PaK, killing german defensive structurs and have more range.
So, Panther and StuG should get 60 range? It that what you want? The game is about balance.
And like I said. IF there is 10 or 5 range more or less can be huge.
Current allii-tankhunters have 1/3 more range than Panzer4. 1/5 more range than Panther.
With the nerf only ~1/4 more than Panzer4. 1/10 more range than Panther. |
I don’t see why you think at guns having longer range than tanks is totally fine (which I agree with), but TDs, which cost fuel and whose sole purpose is to counter tanks, should be made worse at their only job by pretty much not outranging other tanks. Vet3 paths and vet4(?) jaegers outrange other infantry but even on an infantry scale it’s so negligible that it doesn’t matter. And again, limitations of vehicle pathfinding would make utilizing such a small difference in ranges impossible even with a single tank. It already takes more micro to handle 2-3 TDs with almost no armor and normal health than it does to for 1 heavy tank with like 1000 health and good armor; I don’t see why that should be accentuated.
Because they still out-range all the tanks they have to.
StuG G is a tankhunter, Panther is a Tankhunter. Tiger and Königtiger are Allrounder but they get their range buff with Vet. But you know what? They will still be outranged. But you know what? They will not be outranged by 1/5, only by 1/10.
And Ostheer Tiger is worse than Pershing having better AI, killing PaKs like Brummbär.
Edit: And the question is, should it be buffed? I say no. But it's main-counters have to be nerfed. Why Jackson and Firefly? Because beside of SU85 without no turret it is very diffucult to counter the other ones. On massive multiplayer impossible without Commander-Units like Elefant or Jagdtiger.
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The upgrades could block the other one. AI or AT.
They only have to find their role. Maybe also their name "penal" doesn't fit, because their current look is a demolition specialist with best equipment. But the nerf would make them more logical.
We have the Guard-Squad be the soviet Obersoldat.
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Finding the right fix is a problem. Give some alternatives.
But, we all know:
-Penals are too good at their arrival.
-Cons need some love, but making their DPS better will make them op, buff passive would be a solution.
Or is it only me? Some off-topic. Panzergrenadiers Panzerschreck-upgrade should be split into two. |
Lmao so the more TDs you make the less effective at their job they should be? No other unit in the game works like that. The range advantage is supposed to be an advantage, which TDs need because tanks like the tiger and KT have like double the health and enough armor to bounce even some TD shots. The disadvantage of TDs is that unlike tanks, they can’t fight infantry, so you’re investing a heavy amount of resources into something that doesn’t provide any anti infantry pressure at all (not even as much as the panther). They’re also unable to bounce anything but small arms and die in 4 normal tank gun shots (3 from the KT or ele/jagdtiger).
If you can’t deal with the usf at gun with a KT I don’t know what to tell you lol. It still has a decent chance to bounce even if the atg is using the AP rounds and the KT is pretty good at killing AT guns.
Also worth noting that the jagdpanzer 4 has the same range as the allied TDs and nobody complains about that. It even has armor and decent camouflage and is cheaper than the jackson and firefly too.
That is exactly how the game works. If the enemy gets a Tankhunter, you build a AT-gun. You can build more Tank-Hunters, but be sure you will need more Micro than the enemy. That is why PaKs have more range als normal tanks and normally should have more range as a mobile tankhunter (as Panther is).
And if you read corret, I have no problems with King-Tiger. And I also want a nerf for all heavy tank-hunters like Ele, Jagdtiger or ISU. While Elefant is more balanced than Jagdtiger or ISU. Jagdtiger needs a massive speed nerf. ISU needs some longer reload. While for Ostheer the Scope has to be removed to put Ele in line. |
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They cost 300mp and are more expensive as Grenadiers, that is true. But they are spamable and have high survival probability making them way more cost effectiv than any other unit. After the PTRS upgrade they still stay good AI units. While they stay a counter versus vehicles by their own, all other Units with AT-grenade arn't.
They can destroy OKW base with an investment of 135mun, that should not be possible.
Their explosives can destroy most building ingame. There are urban maps with game-relevant houses. For immobile fractions as Ostheer this will be a gg. Or do you say, that the geballte-Ladung of Panzergrenadiers should perform same, only because the same costs?
They are overperforming, and there are enough soviets fanboys also agree with that.
Edit: This changes would't make Soviets worse. Only preventing blobbing one unit and make the alternative more attractive.
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You realize 5 range is literally the minimum range circle on the Molotov? That’s not even half a tank length, and with the pathfinding/vehicle AI being what it is in this game it’d be way too hard to actually utilize such a small range advantage. Case-in-point: the panther outranges the comet but hardly anyone ever is able to actually take advantage of it because it only very slightly outranges the comet IIRC. Only advantage in a straight slugfest that TDs have is range; removing it would make heavies counter TDs which is not how it’s supposed to work.
Thats is it. 5 isn't much, 10 will become noticeable.
That mean that one tank with micro can use it. Multible tanks will get a problem.
Over all, tanks without turret should still have the range benefit, so SU76 and SU85 should perform better than Firefly and Jackson = stay with 60 range to outrange all german tanks (only Jagdpanzer, Elefant and Jagdtiger are same or more).
Don't forget that Brits normal PaK has same DPS as PaK40 and US-PaK also perform good with heat-ability. Also all large german Cats got nerfed over the time. There is no reason for outranging that much. Also Brummbär got range and armor nerf. PaKs are now more effective.
With the nerf of 55 Jackson outranges as new Tiger by 10 range, after Tiger with Vet2 only 5. StuG and Panther will be outranged by 5. |
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Small introduction, penals are overperforming: relative cheap + strong middle and close combat strength + too good abilities. They also have no weak spot over the hole game [EDIT: beside Panzerwerfer in T4], because they work perfect as defensive unit for all verhicles and snipers with PTRS. They are a no-brainer for most situations.
It is complete fine that they perform good with specializations and upgrade. But the current version doesn't fit that role. Especially in larger team-games with the blob-phenomen counters are late commander-abilitys or late-game verhicles, which also have their acceptable counters.
My Suggestion:
1. Giving them same weapon-profile as Volksgrenadiers with blueprint of Mosin Nagant. -> options for DPS modifications:
- PTRS-upgrade for AT + adhesive bomb. (current version, no change)
- SVT-40-upgrade for AI (2*SVT-40 perform like G43 of Grens, blueprint for current penal-gun)
2. Increase the price of explosive charge to 60mun.
(still cheap for the performance. But now more difficult to use multible ones to destroy OKW-base that easy or countering multible vehicles, while AT-grenade would be the cheaper alternative)
To compensate the changings buff Conscripts:
some ideas, like removing the tech-costs:
- Put the RPG-43-ability (AT-grenade) behinde T2, making it a passive upgrade. (like Faust)
- Put Molotov behind T1, making it a passive upgrade too.
- DP-28-upgrade with T4
By the removing of the old upgrade-system there will be enough resources for Building T1 and T2 to unlock.
Overall, that would make Penals-blobbs less attractive, while making Conscript better. |
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