Rework Penals

Small introduction, penals are overperforming: relative cheap + strong middle and close combat strength + too good abilities. They also have no weak spot over the hole game [EDIT: beside Panzerwerfer in T4], because they work perfect as defensive unit for all verhicles and snipers with PTRS. They are a no-brainer for most situations.

It is complete fine that they perform good with specializations and upgrade. But the current version doesn't fit that role. Especially in larger team-games with the blob-phenomen counters are late commander-abilitys or late-game verhicles, which also have their acceptable counters.

My Suggestion:

1. Giving them same weapon-profile as Volksgrenadiers with blueprint of Mosin Nagant. -> options for DPS modifications:
- PTRS-upgrade for AT + adhesive bomb. (current version, no change)
- SVT-40-upgrade for AI (2*SVT-40 perform like G43 of Grens, blueprint for current penal-gun)

2. Increase the price of explosive charge to 60mun.
(still cheap for the performance. But now more difficult to use multible ones to destroy OKW-base that easy or countering multible vehicles, while AT-grenade would be the cheaper alternative)

To compensate the changings buff Conscripts:

some ideas, like removing the tech-costs:

- Put the RPG-43-ability (AT-grenade) behinde T2, making it a passive upgrade. (like Faust)
- Put Molotov behind T1, making it a passive upgrade too.
- DP-28-upgrade with T4

By the removing of the old upgrade-system there will be enough resources for Building T1 and T2 to unlock.



Overall, that would make Penals-blobbs less attractive, while making Conscript better.

Most expensive mainline infantry in game, more expensive then some elite call-in infantry... "relatively cheap"

Too good abilities?
They have explosive that is effective against targets that can't move.
When upgraded, they have sticky that is only a defensive tool to deter pushing due to worst AT weapon in game that is incapable of burst damage.

You really are pushing your narrative about dead meta from 2 years ago somehow still being effective.

They cost 300mp and are more expensive as Grenadiers, that is true. But they are spamable and have high survival probability making them way more cost effectiv than any other unit. After the PTRS upgrade they still stay good AI units. While they stay a counter versus vehicles by their own, all other Units with AT-grenade arn't.

They can destroy OKW base with an investment of 135mun, that should not be possible.

Their explosives can destroy most building ingame. There are urban maps with game-relevant houses. For immobile fractions as Ostheer this will be a gg. Or do you say, that the geballte-Ladung of Panzergrenadiers should perform same, only because the same costs?

They are overperforming, and there are enough soviets fanboys also agree with that.


Edit: This changes would't make Soviets worse. Only preventing blobbing one unit and make the alternative more attractive.

Most expensive mainline infantry in game, more expensive then some elite call-in infantry... "relatively cheap"

Too good abilities?
They have explosive that is effective against targets that can't move.
When upgraded, they have sticky that is only a defensive tool to deter pushing due to worst AT weapon in game that is incapable of burst damage.

You really are pushing your narrative about dead meta from 2 years ago somehow still being effective.

They come way to early for their Performance. Its like u could build obers at 3 min mark...

Finding the right fix is a problem. Give some alternatives.

But, we all know:
-Penals are too good at their arrival.
-Cons need some love, but making their DPS better will make them op, buff passive would be a solution.

Or is it only me? Some off-topic. Panzergrenadiers Panzerschreck-upgrade should be split into two.

I think the first idea would work well.

Right now they're just too strong early game, but also scale too well. It would be acceptable if it was one or the other, but right now, most builds are simply penals all game every game with no transition. An early game penal squad will perform well vs. any infantry (provided you use it correctly), but will also scale into late game very well, with low vet requirements - which just makes things worse, as you can easily replace wiped vetted squads.

Toning down their AI power early on, as per your first option, would solve their over-performing early game issue but still allow for them to be viable late game via upgrades. I think it's also important that the late game upgrades add distinctiveness, and aren't just an over-all upgrade as the PTRS is now - they should have AI power or AT power, not both with no consequence.

Realistically, I'd prefer them to fill a similar role to Obers, but that would require a significant redesign of both Penals and Cons to make it playable.

...

The upgrades could block the other one. AI or AT.

They only have to find their role. Maybe also their name "penal" doesn't fit, because their current look is a demolition specialist with best equipment. But the nerf would make them more logical.

We have the Guard-Squad be the soviet Obersoldat.

You present a lot of things as givens when theyre actually just generally not true. There is no consensus or general belief that penals are too good. Always make sure your assumptions and given points are true before you move on to your actual talking points.

More concerning than that though are your solutions. Option 2 is so out of left field and random. If theyre overperforming for their cost, then how does making their satchel absurdly expensive fix any of that? It would also be one of the more pointless nerfs this game has seen as the satchel is hardly used and soviets usually float tons if munitions anyway.

Option 1 is actually a buff... Penal svts already perform very similarly to volksgrenadier rifles (DPS wise), except for the fact the svts have a slightly better performance at close range, so its close to a neutral change. Gren g43s on the other hand have a noticeably higher close range performance, and absurd moving performance.

I guess my point is that none of the contents of your post seem justified logically.

You present a lot of things as givens when theyre actually just generally not true. There is no consensus or general belief that penals are too good. Always make sure your assumptions and given points are true before you move on to your actual talking points.

More concerning than that though are your solutions. Option 2 is so out of left field and random. If theyre overperforming for their cost, then how does making their satchel absurdly expensive fix any of that? It would also be one of the most pointless nerfs this game has seen as the satchel is hardly used anyway.

Option 1 is actually a buff... Penal svts already perform very similarly to volksgrenadier rifles (DPS wise), except for the fact the svts have a slightly better performance at close range, so its close to a neutral change. Gren g43s on the other hand have a noticeably higher close range performance, and absurd moving performance.

That are also things I was thinking about.

1. There are some other discussions about penals or indirect. So there is a problem with them. Also in my opinion some units now are in a bad spot we can buff passive. e.g. the OKW-base survivability etc.

2. To be fair, the hole unit isn't needed. If cobat-engineers would get the PTRS-upgrade and Conscripts would get some mid-game buffs.

3. That is then the question of balancing. But yes, my idea is to make them more long-range. That would also be a passive buff for Ostheer-Pioneers. By giving them a AI upgrade to become something like they are now.


Edit:

The AI upgrade can also replace all weapons with the currenc penal-gun. By 30mun and T3/4 needed. So simply the timing will be reduced of the penals we know.

And instead of increasig the price of the bomb we can nerf it. So you need 5-6 to destroy a OKW base.

Overall, it is not more than an adjustment like back in time, putting HMG42 into T0.

Beating a dead horse.

There won't be a SU rework, they have already gone through one, there are other factions and units who need it more.
T1 went through a complete overhaul and people had plenty time to give feedback about it. If they were vocal enough, it would had been cancelled like the other community patch.

Soviet is "balanced" around 1v1. In other modes, you can depend on your ally to provide map control early on, something you sacrifice when making your CE build T1 and then wait for Penal to be built.

If they are not strong enough to be worth to be built, then you might as well skip making T1.
Right now the issue is Conscript/Penal/Volks. If you adjust one, you have to touch the 3 at the same time.


I'm gonna throw a curveball, for an hypothetical world on which we have infinite resources to test and implement things. Balance them around been 5 models instead of 6.

Same cost as now. Therefore adjust RA, DPS, reinforce cost, etc to keep similar performance.

what i have been playing with the idea of:


reduce penal price to ~270-280mp, armed with guards mosins
armed with satchels

upgrade to SVTs , t0 hq upgrade required
satchel removed
oorah added

upgrade to ptrs
adds same AT package as now, but is tied to AT tech

mutually exclusive upgrades for penals.


soviet t0 has molitovs removed from tech, molitovs are given to cons as vet 1 ability with increased cooldown.
AT nades adds a weak standard grenade to cons

empty slot in t0 tech added : weapon production improved- same price as weapon racks
unlocks SVT upgrade for penals
unlocks DP-28 upgrade for guards
unlocks passive 2 guards mosins for cons
allows shocks to throw smaoke/ nade exclusively (shared cooldown when not unlocked)

Small introduction, penals are overperforming: relative cheap + strong middle and close combat strength + too good abilities. They also have no weak spot over the hole game [EDIT: beside Panzerwerfer in T4], because they work perfect as defensive unit for all verhicles and snipers with PTRS. They are a no-brainer for most situations.

It is complete fine that they perform good with specializations and upgrade. But the current version doesn't fit that role. Especially in larger team-games with the blob-phenomen counters are late commander-abilitys or late-game verhicles, which also have their acceptable counters.

My Suggestion:

1. Giving them same weapon-profile as Volksgrenadiers with blueprint of Mosin Nagant. -> options for DPS modifications:
- PTRS-upgrade for AT + adhesive bomb. (current version, no change)
- SVT-40-upgrade for AI (2*SVT-40 perform like G43 of Grens, blueprint for current penal-gun)

2. Increase the price of explosive charge to 60mun.
(still cheap for the performance. But now more difficult to use multible ones to destroy OKW-base that easy or countering multible vehicles, while AT-grenade would be the cheaper alternative)

To compensate the changings buff Conscripts:

some ideas, like removing the tech-costs:

- Put the RPG-43-ability (AT-grenade) behinde T2, making it a passive upgrade. (like Faust)
- Put Molotov behind T1, making it a passive upgrade too.
- DP-28-upgrade with T4

By the removing of the old upgrade-system there will be enough resources for Building T1 and T2 to unlock.



Overall, that would make Penals-blobbs less attractive, while making Conscript better.

there are a few problems to this and its exactly why i opted for PPSH overlap for cons and DPs for penals...

1. if penals get SVTs they will be rolling over everything in gigantic deathblobs aswell because their moving DPS remains insanely high ingame.... an optional DP upgrade is far more preferrable to penals as they wont become killblobs anymore

2. giving conscripts DPs might be a bad idea aswell... as they can become oooraahing DP blobs with mollys merge and sandbags... a very scary unit indeed... a nondoc ppsh is far less.... damaging to balance than DPs...

3. also nobody will still build T2 if the maxim sucks... buff the maxim +0.001 suppression + 20% dmg

Beating a dead horse.

There won't be a SU rework, they have already gone through one, there are other factions and units who need it more.
T1 went through a complete overhaul and people had plenty time to give feedback about it. If they were vocal enough, it would had been cancelled like the other community patch.

Soviet is "balanced" around 1v1. In other modes, you can depend on your ally to provide map control early on, something you sacrifice when making your CE build T1 and then wait for Penal to be built.

If they are not strong enough to be worth to be built, then you might as well skip making T1.
Right now the issue is Conscript/Penal/Volks. If you adjust one, you have to touch the 3 at the same time.


I'm gonna throw a curveball, for an hypothetical world on which we have infinite resources to test and implement things. Balance them around been 5 models instead of 6.

Same cost as now. Therefore adjust RA, DPS, reinforce cost, etc to keep similar performance.

SOV T2 still needs a rework for being absolutely trash vs all factions unless PPSH conscripts are involved though... ive already made a large thread concerning this where i confirmed and addressed the soviet T2 issues

I feel this proposal lacks of logic. Penals have a 300 mp cost and a slow production, this means that normally in a fair skill match okw can often choose for a fast luchs/AA truck. Facing 3 volks and stumpio with a low early map control on soviet side, seems fair. Whermacht has normally an hmg, this means with some grens around, not easy life of m3. Penals + sniper build is the slowest build in this game, and always a risk without a zis or guards, or a ptrs upgrade that alone often is not enough. And with a full penals build you can't build covers, so if you lose map control , without sandbags and suppression normally is not so diffucult to push them away. Now, considering that in a standard build you could face 3 penal squads, this means that opponent needs his entire infantry army to destroy okw base with satchels. Maybe, if 3 penals are able to come close to your base with 135 muni, you deserve to lose it. It is not so easy destroy an HQ with 3 satchels, normally is always a big axis mistske.

I feel this proposal lacks of logic. Penals have a 300 mp cost and a slow production, this means that normally in a fair skill match okw can often choose for a fast luchs/AA truck. Facing 3 volks and stumpio with a low early map control on soviet side, seems fair.

ill be dead honest... penal + m3 can bully OKW to submission in the first 3-5 minutes of the game and delay the luchs well enough to get a T-70... the main balancing factor for the penal battalion is the fact that once OKW gets STG volks and obers penals lose their initial advantages and become cost inefficient to trade against such units...

what the rework intends to do is to lower the firepower of penals for the first 3-5 minutes but in turn raise the firepower of the later 5 minutes + to flatten out the dynamic of volks vs penals from a earlygame vs lategame advantage to a flatter long range vs close range advantage...

this means penals will

Whermacht has normally an hmg, this means with some grens around, not easy life of m3. Penals + sniper build is the slowest build in this game, and always a risk without a zis or guards, or a ptrs upgrade that alone often is not enough. And with a full penals build you can't build covers, so if you lose map control , without sandbags and suppression normally is not so diffucult to push them away.

idk... the M3 is my favorite tactic vs grenadiers... i know grens will waste 30 muni to faust it and 1 faust is never gonna kill an M3... due to the insane firepower of the M3 if the grens do opt to faust it i can usually deal 2-3 models of damage which maims ostheer`s initial firepower in exchange for some repairtime for my engineers... i can then focus on wiping the grenadiers where the MG-42 isnt and use the M3 to bring engineers with flames to where the MG-42 is...

overall the dynamic vs wehr is similar to OKW... but rather replace STG volks with LMG grens and obers with vet 1 API mg-42s....

Now, considering that in a standard build you could face 3 penal squads, this means that opponent needs his entire infantry army to destroy okw base with satchels. Maybe, if 3 penals are able to come close to your base with 135 muni, you deserve to lose it. It is not so easy destroy an HQ with 3 satchels, normally is always a big axis mistske.

agreed... but in a t1/t2 or guards motor this isnt that hard though... the mortar makes the job alot easier trust me...

Penals arent even that good when you consider all of their drawbacks like lack of snare, build time, price, lack of grenade etc.

It seems that only really low ranked axis only players cry about Penals because they don't understand how this game works.

IMO they are fairly balanced right now.

If Conscripts and Maxims were even half decent I'd build T2 instead 99% of the time as it's much more useful.

I stopped reading at "they are spammable"

You can tell when somebody make wrong assumptions because he gets assblasted by a single unit.
Penals are spammable, really now?


Penals need their design changed, but since you're gonna base your idea around penals being spammable, I'd rather not read any further.

If Conscripts and Maxims were even half decent I'd build T2 instead 99% of the time as it's much more useful.

newsflash!: maxims are (more then half) decent, just the people using them aren't

- SVT-40-upgrade for AI (2*SVT-40 perform like G43 of Grens, blueprint for current penal-gun)

Giving 2 weapon is not a good solution imo because that makes units lose less DPS when they lose model.

An SVT upgrade and or even the G43 upgrade should provide weapon for all the squad. Those weapon of coarse should be weaker.

Especially in the case of penals one could test giving them +3 plus another +3 at certain tech level.

- DP-28-upgrade with T4

Lmg in 6 men squad is also problematic for the same reason and that goes for osttrouppen to.

Replacing all the mosin with a better version or giving them SVTs with good mid DPS so that optimum range is mid is better solution.

About Penals, they where in bad spot when the got patched for the first time and there allot of negative feedback about them. That is why the got nerfed in nearly every patch after that. Imo they should have simply been redesigned.

I stopped reading at "they are spammable"

You can tell when somebody make wrong assumptions because he gets assblasted by a single unit.
Penals are spammable, really now?


Penals need their design changed, but since you're gonna base your idea around penals being spammable, I'd rather not read any further.

Don't know if you like 3vs3 or 4vs4 games. If so, you know the problem. You only force penals allowing them to become same cancer unit than old Volks-Blobbs with Schreck. Only with more brake trough character.

They are balanced in 1vs1, broken in other game modes. For me, there is no other unit ingame get sucb a boost by team-mates. One mortar with smoke by e. g. us and the first buildi g for hmg42 is destroyed, cant shoot through the shot-blocker. You have to bundle = easy tragets by mkrtar or even mkre penal bombs. It is simply broken, and that at moment of first 45mun. And the scenario doesn't end here, now enemy gets ptrs to counter only things achse can build now. Get a T70 and gg. And that is no l2p, simply the team-bonus.