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Thread: Worst than brace : multiple OKW's flak trucks camping vp26 Mar 2017, 16:38 PM

26 Mar 2017, 15:40 PMle_saucisson_masque

To the guy saying okw should smoke bofor to cap vp : tell me how u do that

With those copious amounts of Falls you see OKW-players use in every match... Kappa

26 Mar 2017, 15:48 PMaaa

that is absolutely nothing of a nerf. Dont forget OKW and OH has a cheapest unlock of every unit type.

Faction	Tier I	Tier II /Subtech I	Tier III	Tier IV /Subtech II	Total w/o upgrades	Total w/ upgrades
Ostheer	80MP/10F	200MP/40F + 100MP/40F	240MP/60F + 100MP/45F	200MP/50F + 100MP/45F	1020MP/270F	(+150MP/60A for medic bunker -> 1170MP/60A/270F
OKW	200MP/25F + 100MP/15F	200MP/50F + 100MP/15F	200MP/120F + 100MP/15F		900MP/240F	1400MP/270F
Soviets	160MP/10F	160MP/20F	240MP/85F	240MP/90F	800MP/205F	1300MP/245F
America	200MP/50F	200MP/60F	240MP/120F		640MP/230F	940MP/270F (+250MP/10F for Amublance -> 1190MP/280F)
Brits	180MP/30F	100MP/15F	280MP/115F	200MP/50F	760MP/210F	1210MP/275F (+30A for med-kits -> 1210MP/30A/275F)

Ah yes. Cheapest unlocks. And quickest too, especially if we completely ignore that some factions have twice the effort of teching due to "researching" a tier or vehicle first. Seriously, your attempts at throwing bollocks around have gotten quite low recently...

In: COH2 Gameplay

Thread: MARCH 28th UPDATE23 Mar 2017, 17:40 PM

23 Mar 2017, 15:46 PMTobis

Are you literally only going 222 spam every match?
The 222 is not the only counter to light tanks. The 222 was not and is not designed to beat light tanks that are more than double its price by itself.

Ostheer has:
- pak
- schrecks
- teller
- puma
- fausts
- still the 222
- every combination of those

The significant nerfs to AEC, t-70, and Stuart ai means you don't have to YOLO all in try to kill their light tank or lose every game. You need to #adapt to the new meta. Play some WBP and submit replays here if you want some help with that.

Thanks for not reading a single word I have written. I have referred to all of those options, with the exception of the Puma (which I might add is in a single, obscure Ostheer doctrine). Is that what "snip" means nowadays? "I haven't read the post I am quoting here, but let me reply to it nonetheless."

P.S.: May I add that "Everyone who doesn't have my opinion sucks, here is the replay forum so you can get good, NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBBBBBBBBBBB!!111!" isn't a very convincing argument either? That I do at least somewhat know what I am talking about would have been obvious to you if you had actually read anything I wrote (I know, reading is hard; all those letters...), so perhaps that is the underlying issue here.

For fucks sake, with Mr. Smith it is at least possible to bring arguments, because he reads them. With you it is like talking to a machine that selects answers from a limited pool of pre-written sentences.

P.P.S.: @ Mr. Smith Is it intended that PIATs are still a bit... lackluster? Sure, they are cheap as hell, and a perfect tool for your Royal Engineers, but IMO they still seem quite underwhelming compared to other AT options. Might be something that could be improved on once British tanks are brought in line.

In: COH2 Gameplay

Thread: MARCH 28th UPDATE23 Mar 2017, 14:44 PM

22 Mar 2017, 19:46 PMJackDickolson

Not quite right. Some light tanks just need a bit more time to wipe inf now.

The AEC received massive buffs, and it can out-cheese the Stuart's stun shot by its new thread-breaking shot. The T70 is a lot more durable now. The Stuart has better penetration, and can vet faster.

Not to mention the fact that the new PIAT is a super Bazooka-Shreck hybird.

Allied Light Tanks will be still powerful, and people will be building them as often as they used to. The 222, on the other hand, has literally no purpose anymore, as by the time it arrives the allied "Scout/Clown Cars" have done the their damage.

I don't think the timing of the 222 is off, the performance is the problem here. People were getting two 222s before, because one wasn't good enough and because the price allowed it. With the new cost, that isn't possible anymore, while the other changes to the 222 were made with the intention of keeping its performance on the same level with "more consistency" as before. And some of the changes are completely pointless (like the penetration buff), because they result in single-digit percentage-changes.

Effectively, that is a massive nerf. And that nerf will be felt. One 222 wasn't good enough to even soft-counter a Stuart or T-70 before, so it won't magically be able to do that now (especially as some of those vehicles have gotten more health). And that means that all the changes to the Stuart's and T-70's anti infantry capability will have been for naught, because these changes will now only slow things down instead of preventing them.

In: COH2 Gameplay

Thread: MARCH 28th UPDATE23 Mar 2017, 14:28 PM

23 Mar 2017, 13:31 PMEsxile

As far as I remember, 222 counters m20/m3/uc in live version and are still doing the job in the WBP. Pulling out 2 or 3 of them to counter Stuart/AEC/T70 has never been the intended design. Thus I don't really understand what you are complaining for.
The 222 is better because you don't need anymore to dive in in order to get some kills on infantry squads. You can sit at max/mid range and get reliable kills the same way the m20 does. Getting Xp and using its abilities.

Well, do tell what the supposed counter to the T-70 and Stuart is then? Because those things arrive at a time when you can't go for Panzerschrecks or mines yet (because your Grens will lose the infantry battle otherwise), and AT guns alone have never worked against light vehicles. That leaves the Panzer IV and StuG, which means the enemy will have over five minutes of complete field control. That is what I am complaining about.

This could work, if AT guns were significantly more mobile (i.e. could turn much faster and would have the setup time of a bloody factory), but in the current state there is no adequate counter on the Ostheer side. So we're back to the problem of Ostheer being unable to fight light vehicles, which is exactly what the cheap 222 was originally meant to do, that is exactly why Relic abandoned the 221 and made the vehicle come out with the 20cm cannon pre-installed instead.

On top of that, the M20, M3, and UC never were the problem here. Those can be countered by infantry and MGs (just like the 222 by the way), because they have relatively low armour. Meanwhile, the 222 can't simply sit at range against infantry, because then it won't get any kills. That thing was worse off against infantry than the M20, and according to the patch notes it still won't be any better (only more consistent). So you have a vehicle more expensive than the M20, less effective against infantry, that now also can't fight vehicles as well anymore. That either means the 222 has been fucked up, or that Ostheer is missing a vehicle class that can actually fight light tanks without breaking your bank account.

P.S.: We wouldn't even have the problem, if we went back to the 221/222 idea, and made the 221 perform actually good against infantry and the 222 good against light tanks. That would of course require considerable work on the 221/222 to make it fit both roles respectively, which probably would have meant less time spent on Penal Troops...

23 Mar 2017, 12:53 PMMr.Smith

Just out of curiosity, how was your preservation like with the 222? The new 222, as well as most of the vehicles in the patch, actually require you to acquire veterancy before you can go for the deep dives.

The new 222 is no longer a vet0 suicide-rush vehicle. You invest in it, it gets veterancy, and it pays back. It also pays back a lot better than live-version 222.

The changes also mean that you don't have to dive-in every time for the 222 to do any damage. You can sit back, and kite. Then, use the improved mobility and keep your distance and keep kiting; while doing damage; while gaining vet. Ask anybody that has actually played WBP vs a human opponent, and they will tell you the same.

This requires a change in mentality.

PS: If the only testing you did was vs AI then, of course, the changes in 222's mobility make absolutely no difference. The AI is static either way.

My 222s usually always lasted until the first tanks showed, sometimes a bit longer than that (the problem was, that the 222 needed to provide the necessary baiting to prevent the enemy tanks from fucking up my infantry until my first tank showed up, which is by the very design of Ostheer's teching structure always later than a Cromwell, Sherman, or T-34). Occasionally, I would lose one of them earlier, because of mines or because I simply fucked up and misjudged my dive capabilities in certain situations. These vehicles were by no means throw-away tools.

The problem with your assumption is, that you don't even take the other vehicles into consideration: Everything is just as mobile as the 222, and everything packs more of a punch. So you were already forced to stay at range, in order to pull back and escape if necessary - the only exception was, when a Stuart or T-70 were severely wounded and a dive might have gotten them out the picture. That was also the only situation when the loss of one of the 222s would have been acceptable.
With the new 222, nothing in that regard has changed, except that you can't do the dive anymore, because you only have one 222, which you then of course can't risk losing. At the same time, the performance of a single 222 hasn't been raised to the level that a single 222 is enough, so now Ostheer players are even worse off than before.

And of course it helps to read, I said that most of my matches were against AI, not all. The problem with such a small scale test was, that player skill was quite far stretched, with me sometimes being the complete underdog because I was simply not as good as my opponent, while at other times I completely destroyed some poor sod who didn't know better. There were perhaps two matches where I was relatively even matched to my opponent, and only one of those happened when I was playing Ostheer - the results were pretty telling in my eyes, but a sample size of one doesn't make for good proof. The issue still stands though, because the numbers don't magically disappear.

In: COH2 Gameplay

Thread: MARCH 28th UPDATE23 Mar 2017, 12:47 PM

23 Mar 2017, 10:39 AMle_saucisson_masque

i see a bunch of people waking up today when you literraly got MONTHS to test these changes, provide feedback and give review.

I remember Smith complaining about the lack of feedback, and when i used to play coh2, couldn't find a single WBP game during hours.

Yeah, the 20+ pages threads for every single iteration of the WBP really was quite little feedback, eh? The problem was rather, that no feedback except 20000 word posts with peer reviewed, scientific studies were considered acceptable. Which is quite funny, considering the reasoning for any of the changes is based on "we try", "we want to", or "attempt to".

22 Mar 2017, 18:35 PMEsxile

You'll probably see less Light tanks in the first place, or if you see them have more time to react with your infantry since they removed their wipe machine potential.
In resume, no need to invest on 2x222 to keep them at bay, one is enough with your pak and gren.

You do realise that people got two 222s because one wasn't cutting it? Two of them performed the way people needed them two, for an acceptable cost. Now that the 222 performs worse against vehicles due to the lower rate of fire on the auto-cannon, and now that you will only be able to get one of them, their performance against vehicles went down the drain for the same cost. That is effectively a nerf.

And it doesn't help at all, that the Stuart and T-70 now have less wiping potential, because they will still wipe your infantry and (in the case of the Stuart) have super-glue-repairs without the need to manage an engineer unit. Meanwhile, the performance of AT guns hasn't changed, so light vehicles can still YOLO dive AT-guns and circle around them while the AT gun can't do a thing.

22 Mar 2017, 18:20 PMTobis

Has anyone complaining about the 222 changes actually played the patch?

Yes. At least the versions that were available, and due to lack mostly against AI. And the 222 changes were not impressive, to phrase it carefully.

22 Mar 2017, 18:20 PMTobis

The 222 was ridiculously cheap and effective for the price as an AT-unit. Are you really going to argue about a light vehicle costing less that a JEEP was beating light tanks?

The changes to the mg will end up evening out the performance, because it was bugged before. The mg was actually incredibly powerful, it just never fired. Against infantry the performance is pretty much the same as before; it's just more reliable now.

Against other light vehicles at a distance it will be slightly better now too, with the added pen and accuracy.

The only real nerf was to the cost, which was more than overdue. It's not designed to be a YOLO spam unit anymore, now it is a scouting and soft vehicle counter tool, which should be obvious because it is a SCOUT CAR.

Every light tank in the game was also nerfed, btw. Across the board light vehicles were overperforming.

First of all, regardless of what Relic claims the unit's name is, the 222 is an ARMOURED SCOUT CAR. Leichter Panzerspähwagen. So why does it have less than a third(!) of the armour of the bloody M5 half-track? Not that this should matter in any case, as balance is more important than all the real-life names and performances in the world. (And that is why the M5 correctly has more armour, just to do away with the surely coming attempts to claim that I called for an M5 nerf.)

So the 222, according to your statement, is supposed to perform the same against infantry as it did before, only more "reliably". That is no improvement, because of all the light vehicles the 222 performed the worst against infantry. A fucking 251 performed better against infantry (except for the lack of a turret). So no change there.
At the same time, the 20cm cannon performs worse in any scenario, because it fires more slowly. Okay? Never mind the fact that the cannon is supposed to work better at range now, due to better penetration (LOL) and accuracy. Are you taking a fucking piss here? The chance to penetrate the T-70 and Stuart has changed by single-digit percentages (because having 35 or 40 penetration against 70 and 80 armour doesn't make much difference), and the accuracy was never an issue, as the opponents had target sizes between 18 and 20. The 222 relied on firing quickly, so that the penetration chances of a single shot weren't much of an issue, due to the volume of fire. YOU NERFED THE FIRING RATE, remember?
That same argument was also the reason, why people went for two 222s, because a single one couldn't reliably shit out enough shots to make the equation work - that isn't possible anymore, due to 30 fucking fuel, while having the pressure of researching and building the next tech-tier ASAP in order to come out with a Panzer IV two or three minutes after the first Sherman, T-34, or Cromwell.

So, let's sum it all up: The 222 is effectively worse against vehicles, and allegedly performs the same against infantry (per your statement). At the same time, the enemy will now have to drive longer behind your retreating infantry squads in order to wipe them. At the same time, you can't keep the enemy at distance with the 222, because everything is either just as fast or minimally slower than the 222, while at the same time the Stuart still has an 0.75 moving accuracy modificator, compared to the usual 0.5.
Yeah, I wonder how that will play out.

------------------------------

So, considering that sniper play was nerfed (good riddance, that was obnoxious at best), and the 222 doesn't do a better job while being more expensive, and also considering that all infantry changes of Allied infantry only affect later game stages when vet3 becomes relevant, how exactly is that not a direct nerf to Ostheer's early game capabilities? Sure, your Grens now perform better against vet3 Riflemen, but that doesn't fucking matter when you lose the game before vet3 Riflemen become a thing! Not to mention that Ostheer reinforcement costs are still higher than those of the Brits when they were incorrectly readjusted that one time, so bleed will effect them significantly more than most other factions.

Combine this with the abysmal situation that tanks are in right now (which I know is not the fault of the patch team, but the issue exists nonetheless), which means that the only crutch Ostheer has left is the StuG. Congratulations, you now have to set up your entire faction play around spamming as many StuGs as fast as possible and pray for luck. I wonder what will be nerfed with the next patch...

Don't get me wrong, there are loads of changes in the patch that were fucking overdue, and the cost of the 222 was definitely one of them. But that doesn't mean that effectively nerfing the performance of the 222 at the same time was a smart idea.

In: COH2 Gameplay

Thread: MARCH 28th UPDATE22 Mar 2017, 18:04 PM

22 Mar 2017, 17:43 PMDangerous-Cloth

Rejoice, for now after having 4 years of lackluster light vehicles as Ostheer, you have no viable light vehicle as Ostheer.

In all honesty, it was way to easy to get like 3-5 of them and dominate the field lol.

The 222 was viable before the patch. Mostly because a pair of them countered light vehicles quite well without breaking your bank account. The Stuart and T-70 may be weaker now, but they still are good enough to easily take on a single 222, and getting two will be impossible now (or will bite you in the arse later on, as the perfect teaching strucure leading to perfect tanks like the Pansy IV will come even later than it already does).

Meanwhile, the 222 still can't properly fight infantry, because it is the only vehicle of its class that for no reason at all has to be able to take damage from small-arms fire. It is also worse at fighting vehicles, due to the lower firing rate, while it gets a totally useless penetration buff - that thing never had trouble penetrating Stuart's or T-70s reliably, so the penetration buff doesn't change anything at all.

The sniper has been nerfed, and a few rather inconsequential nerfs to Allied infantry (inconsequential, because the nerfs we're talking about only affect late game infantry) happened. The only crutch remaining to Ostheer is StuG spam now, although I don't doubt that will be taken away as well as soon as the Cromwell is put into the realm of krank medium tanks.

We will see how this plays out, but if it is anything like the previous patches with similar changes, he results will be exactly as I have foretold. Not that it matters much, another six months with Relic sticking their thumbs up their arse will mean the end to the playerbase, with the exception of perhaps a couple hundred grizzled veterans. We saw the same thing happen in CoH1, the fact that nobody at Relic has learned from that is quite telling.

In: COH2 Gameplay

Thread: MARCH 28th UPDATE22 Mar 2017, 15:44 PM

22 Mar 2017, 12:24 PMArray

It might be worth mentioning that before the MG didn't really work at all plus it's counters have also been nerfed

According to Relic, they fixed that over a year ago. And the greatest counters to the 222 was and is infantry, due it having less armour than my BMW i3…

So all in all, we will see less 222 spam from Ostheer players, and instead even less Ostheer players at all, because almost all remaining clutches have been kicked out from under them this patch. That is of course not really the fault of the team behind the patch, as almost everything that really needed fixing was "out of
scope" - so even with the community fixing Relic's game for them, Relic is still a fucking incompetent dickbutt about it.

In: COH2 Gameplay

Thread: The American BAR21 Mar 2017, 11:49 AM

21 Mar 2017, 10:30 AMIntelligence209

Make it less effective as it is now while on the move, meanwhile more effective as it is now while stationary.

More effective while standing still? That thing already outdamages or competes with most SMGs at close range while performing almost on the same level as the best LMGs at long range. How exactly do you want to buff it even further while standing still without making all other weapons obsolete?!

Also, the much bigger problem are double-BAR Riflemen. They outperform any LMG squad and can compete with most close-range squads.

P.S.:

21 Mar 2017, 11:40 AMDonnieChan

Are we at that level again? How about we judge a sentence by the worth of its words, not the person saying it? Oh wait, that would require using actual arguments instead of behaving like a child.

In: COH2 Balance

Thread: Pz.Kpfw. VI - Tiger21 Mar 2017, 11:30 AM

16 Mar 2017, 17:03 PMelchino7

The Tiger received the same changes as the IS2 on the last 2 years plus the increase on range at vet0. They both got their popcap reduced, CP increased, penetration increased, rear armor reduced.

They are equally good/bad with the difference that there are more Tiger doctrines, therefore you see it much frequently.

You are flat out wrong. The IS-2 got several armour buffs that the Tiger never saw (both started out with the same frontal armour, while the IS-2 by now is on the level of the King Tiger), the IS-2 had a lower reduction of its rear armour. When the Tiger's vet0 gun range was increased, the IS-2 got a previously non-existing vet2 gun range-buff that negated the Tiger's buff. The IS-2 over the past couple years had several changes to its AOE and accuracy profile, resulting in a much better performing tank. It got several penetration buffs.
Not to mention that there is absolutely no proof that the Tiger is used more often than the IS-2, so even that claim of yours is dubious at best.

Do you even read the changelog thread (on the official forums) before you post your answers?

P.S.: I posted an in-depth explanation in this very thread why the IS-2 is superior to the Tiger. There is factual, objective, mathematical proof for you. I don't expect much, but the minimum politeness of actually reading what I wrote when trying to make me look dumb would go a long way to not make an arse out of yourself.

In: COH2 Balance

Thread: Pz.Kpfw. VI - Tiger16 Mar 2017, 13:12 PM

15 Mar 2017, 12:57 PMGluhoman

Here comes the "Capture point" vet1 ability for is2

That is indeed a point, but considering the superiority the IS-2 initially has (which is only increased after vet1), as I described above, it doesn't make much of a difference, except that it allows the Tiger to actually survive to gain that veterancy. The thing is, the Tiger in its current form has to rely on Blitzkrieg to do anything, while the IS-2 can work as it stands - that doesn't mean that the IS-2's capture ability is suddenly good and should be left as it is right now, but if Blitzkrieg saw a much needed rework during the rebalancing of the Tiger, the IS-2 wouldn't suddenly be a sitting duck anymore than it already is.

I also explained above, that the IS-2 is a unicorn for a good reason - it's just that the Tiger is even worse. Both should see some sort of rework, but with the buffs the IS-2 got over the past two years (while the Tiger didn't even get half of that) makes the IS-2 objectively the better tank.

In: COH2 Balance