Elefant does 37.5 at Vet 0 and 66.9 at Vet 3.
JT does 35 at vet 0 and 111.9 at Vet 5.
So yeah they dont have bad DPS.
I think the Firefly just deserves a cost reduction to around 360/140. Then it can stay the "unique" TD it is now but not cost so much more without actually being better as comparable Allied TDs (Jackson and SU85). Considering the amount of munitions you need on top of the highest stock price makes you think you get a really really good TD that outclasses comparable vehicles but that´s just not the case at the moment.
DPS without Armor and target size values does not mean much.
In addition its actually time to kill that matter because JT and Elephant usually overkill. If you want to use DPS you have to lower the damage according to the number of shots.
For instance a Elephant vs medium does 900 damage to kill a medium so its damage medium so be considered 214 if you are using DPS calculations.
So actually the DPS of vetted Elephant vs a medium is about equal to that of vetted FF without the tulips although it need allot more XP to get to vet 3. |
Buff its speed. Isn't it a sherman? They were relatively fast right?
FF was slower than PzIV in real life if this has any relevance.
In game FF get 15% speed at vet 1 and can has access to "war speed".
As long as FF gets Tulips it's performance will be inconstant since it will be able to wipe out a medium tank with one reload.
One will probably have to redesign Tulips to to make the performance of the unit more consistent. |
In other words:
Its reliably doing its one fucking job.
No that is only your opinion, mine is that it is OP.
Why you never argue for Panther having too much penetration right out of the gate, when allies armor value overall is much lower then axis?
Penetration being high is a fact.
Penetration being too high is your personal opinion.
Learn the difference, these two are not the same and you've erased yourself the line between facts and your own opinion.
PLS provide the allied unit you are referring to because there is large number of allied vehicles that have high armor values.
Finally, I have no intention of playing word games with you and help you derail yet another thread. |
Vetted top tier Tank Destroyer has high chance to penetrate armor of late game tanks.
It has been argued by the usual suspect that the high penetration of the SU-85 is my opinion and not a fact. I simply provided the number that prove it is a fact and not an opinion. |
I'll remind you about this every single time you'll complain about Panther vs TDs again the future.
Its price is very in line with TDs of this tier. It also has amazing vet that makes it most survivable 60 range TD. Its perfectly fine counter to mediums and as long as OKW has panther, no, its penetration is not too low vs heavies, because its not meant to engage them, you have specialist vehicle for that in the same tier.
Its a top tier TD which is supposed to be hardcounter WITHOUT being spammed for up to 375 STOCK armor.
Its pen being too good is your personal opinion, not balance fact.
And your opinion on vet is plain wrong, taking away RoF vet, making it machinegun TD obliterating both heavies and mediums alike with equal ease and replacing it with pen that makes a difference exclusively vs heavies while doing absolutely nadda against meds and increasing reload time only makes it better vs heavies, the exact units it was supposed to be better against.
I see you little campaign of proving Vipper wrong still goes on with the usual poor result.
The penetration is high this is a fact not a personal opinion supported by stats:
Vetted SU-85 Penetration 312/299/286
Veted FF Penetration 260/240/210
Vetted Panther Penetration 260/240/220
Chance to penetrate at max range:
Vetted Panther 100%
Vetted Tiger 95.3%
Vetted KT 76.3%
|
Why is the JP4 too expensive to counter medium tanks? It costs roughly the same as a Su85 and less than Jackson and Firefly. It's also next to impossible for Allied medium tanks to do much damage to it because of 230 frontal armor. Unlike allied TDs that all get penned at a high percentage by P4s
Because a JP costs more than allied tank. Dedicated counter are usually cheaper than the unit they counter.
Medium tank are not meant to fight a dedicated TD like the JP-4 frontally, one can simply flank a JP where they get 100% chance to penetrate.
If one is losing M-36/FF to PzIV, one is probably doing something wrong. |
JP4 is one of the best TDs in COH2 as you could see if you bother´d to read the stats. It has way more durability with 230 armor and 800 HP at vet 2 than ANY other medium TD. It also has camo which is super useful when fighting enemy TDs because it allows you to always get the first shot off. The JP4 also beats any TD in a 1v1 fight because of higher ROF, extra VP, low target size and strong accuracy. The only vehicles it sucks against are IS2s but then they are not supposed to coutner heavy tanks and you have a high pen Panther for the job.
The idea that JP4 is best TD because it can counter enemy TD is simply flawed. TD's role is to counter tanks and the performance vs TDs rather irrelevant.
JP is too expensive as a counter mediums and has too low penetration vs heavies.
I did not mention the Panther and the Stug + M10 are in a whole different price area so the comparison sucks. All the other TDs have 60 range just like the FF.
Saying that all TD have range 60 as is simply false, pls move on.
Slightly more vision and slightly more accuracy does make the FF better but not by enough to justify the price.
SU 85 is not overbuffed, without it Soviets might aswell surrender once late game Axis tanks hit. It´s just the Jackson that is too good because of mobility and penetration.
Tullips can be dodged by MOVING your stupid tank. Who in his right state of mind would let his medium tank eat both Tullip rockets. The Kübel thing is a joke and you know that.
Su-85 base stat where buffed allot while its veterancy bonuses nerf only a bit. That makes SU-85 OP when vetted. It penetration values are simply over the top. |
Firefly has 60 range, just like any other TD. So what´s the selling point here? Other than having slightly longer medium range which gives you slightly more pen and acc in a small range are between 30-45.
Stug and Panther have range 50.
Just because SU-85 and M36 have been overbuffed that does not mean FF is bad.
You can´t calculate Tulip DPS because of many factors. You should know that. First of all upgrading FF to be able to use Tulips costs lots of muni. Second shooting Tulips costs a ton of muni. Third you never know how many rockets actually hit.
The tank commander gives +10% sight (not listed anyways) and accuracy bonus. It doesn´t make the Firefly a good TD in any way.
Actually FF can kill a medium with 1 reload if it manages to land tullips and it so accurate that at vet 3 it has almost 100% chance vs a kubel at range 60.
Actually 45 vision and higher accuracy does make FF better. |
You have to factor in tulips DPS also...
You have to factor in the bonus from commander
You have to factor in that FF has the long mid range than most (if not all) TDs.
You have to factor in the possibility war speed/Hammer trucking (or fast repair) |
You want that power level to be reduced, but never explain why should it be reduced.
Its not like current Ost that does more then just mindlessly spamming grens struggles against any of the 3 allied factions, so ost being weak is not an excuse anymore and increasing TTK level across the board will only lead to CQC units roflstomping everything as mainlines no longer would be able to effectively engage and soften them up from a distance, cover play would also be diminished as it wouldn't do much against these CQC units.
Actually I have explained so many times that some people have politely ask me not repeat every time.
Yet because the TTK have been lowered so much it is the QCQ that have been buffed in the recent patches, (shock troops, Stormtroopers, Assault engineers, Cavalry riflemen...) and assault grenadier probably in the next patch. Imo it is about time that one stops buffing the DPS of units and start setting acceptable DPS for each time frame.
And no you are wrong it is actually high damage output that diminishes cover play. |
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