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Thread: Pioneers vs Rear Echelon27 Jan 2022, 09:46 AM Jump back to quoted post27 Jan 2022, 09:39 AMHannibal Purely for the first engagements I agree with you. The last point though is quite a hyperbole. Vanilla pioneers can contribute until enemy mainlines get either upgrades or vet2, which makes them useful in combat for at least the first 5-10 minutes depending on the matchup. Especially in smaller modes where they are not focused out as much but can go more often into 1v1 situations. Pioneer are SMG troops that can not attack past initial fighting and their best combat use is defending HMG from flanks, while having to fulfill a number of other roles including building base building. From my experience it is rather rare to see a vet 3 pioneer. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pioneers vs Rear Echelon26 Jan 2022, 20:45 PM Jump back to quoted post26 Jan 2022, 19:58 PMHannibal Rear Echelons cost 200 MP, they are not "free". His OP was about a comparison with pioneers. If that makes sense is another question, but Echelons are without a doubt the worst early game unit. Vanilla they are similar to Combat Engineers, but those at least get better utility, a flame thrower and are both cheaper in purchase and reinforcement. His complain is about the first engagement not about building extra RE so even if a RE cost 100 manpower the first engagement results wouldn't change. Talking about cost in that situation does not really make sense. As for pioneers they are not useful in combat past minute 1 unless under very specific conditions. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pioneers vs Rear Echelon26 Jan 2022, 17:19 PM Jump back to quoted post26 Jan 2022, 17:02 PMHannibal To be honest I hope that CoH3 will feature some generalized "weapon skill" stat per squad that provides a modifier for weapon DPS based. Technically, this could already exist by giving each squad a separate accuracy modifier and somehow exists with different vet bonuses, but basically every unit starts out at a modifier of "1" and only vet creates differences. This is basically what you suggested back then if I understand it correctly, at least broadly categorizing units into three classes. The current system makes base Conscripts or builder units just as effective with a picked up weapon as alleged elite troops with proper training. The current solution was to make most weapons non-droppable and force every unit to use mostly unique weapons, so that the weapon accuracy can be tuned instead of the squad's "weapon skill". Changing the weapon to one with different stats on pick up would solve the issue, but at the cost of high maintenance. The suggestion at the time was about universal modifiers according to category. Since Relic/mod team has opted for more complicates solution like slot weapon modifiers (osttrupen)/different weapon (Ober/commandos/paras/Rangers) I included those solution also. Main point is that slot weapon should be beneficial to the units according to their status. Jump back to quoted post26 Jan 2022, 17:02 PMHannibal To circle back to topic: I am fine with CoH2's current approach. It's not elegant, it's not optimal. But at least regarding rear echelons, it is okay. The faction works without them being potent early on. USF's issues are elsewhere, so even if we'd get another patch, I'd probably not touch echelons. OP seem to have trouble dealing with hmg and that has probably more to do with refusal to build mortars than the performance of RE. Cost of RE is really irrelevant in what he describes as the issue since the unit comes for free. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pioneers vs Rear Echelon26 Jan 2022, 13:47 PM Jump back to quoted post26 Jan 2022, 13:20 PMHannibal I also don't think RE are initially worth their 200 MP cost. They are probably the least useful unit in the early game having both bad DPS and little utility. Since USF has crew repairs, they are one of the very few units I do not rebuilt until I really need the sweeper. I agree with the points that others made: Weapon racks (or better to say bazookas) make them decently efficient. The issue here is obviously that those weapons have to be priced to fit basically any unit of the whole USF faction. So making REs cheaper could result in bazooka/BAR spam tactics, which in turn could only be fixed by increasing the price of the weapon racks and/or weapons themselves. Which then again would affect Riflemen as well. Since REs are not really needed for USF to work, sacrificing their early game usefulness is the easier (and smarter) choice. There is a flaw in "rack" system and I had pointed out years ago (in 2017) when it could had easily been fixed: https://www.coh2.org/topic/60230/balancing-dropable-weapons But there are also solution: 1) units having a modifier for slot weapons 2) units picking different version of weapons In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pioneers vs Rear Echelon25 Jan 2022, 16:41 PM Jump back to quoted post25 Jan 2022, 16:32 PMKatukov it is clear thank you for realizing that REs suck Well RE do not suck according to top players. Even op changed his mind: "I do not think that Rear echelons are UP or OP," In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pioneers vs Rear Echelon25 Jan 2022, 13:47 PM Jump back to quoted post25 Jan 2022, 13:26 PMProtos Angelus ... To sum up, I do not think that Rear echelons are UP or OP, nor do I think that pioneers are UP or OP... If that is the case I suggest you stop posting things like: "Why are rear echelon so weak in combat, yet cost 200 MP?" "why are rear echelon so amazingly bad at combat?" "They have poor repair speed" "They lose to each and every combat unit there it, from early to late." "So why are rear echelon so damn sh***y and relatively expensive." "seen one rear echelon flank a lone MG42, and the MG42 crew, the other 3 models actually, went toe to toe with vet0 echelons and actually bled them, almost winning the fight" "realizing that rifle nade on echelons is as useful as is an SMG on a sniper against decent opponents." because it pretty clear you are describing a unit that is UP and thus it seem you are contradicting yourself. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pioneers vs Rear Echelon25 Jan 2022, 10:50 AM Jump back to quoted post25 Jan 2022, 08:44 AMTheMachine Yeah Rear Echelon carbine DPS is pretty bad. Why? The DPS is about the same level as CE mosin long range and superior at close range and RE get a 20% unconditional accuracy bonus at vet 1 unlike most other units. Jump back to quoted post25 Jan 2022, 08:44 AMTheMachine There's a lot of RNG with it though, unlike Pioneers which are quite consistent. Why? and pioneers will very little damage far consistently so in that case is not really a advantage. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pioneers vs Rear Echelon25 Jan 2022, 09:38 AM Jump back to quoted post25 Jan 2022, 01:23 AMtheekvn ... - And again, RE spam should be viable. Why nerfing them because " USF IS RIFLEMAN SPAM Faction" ?. We are no longer in 2016 era.Every single nerf for RE is invalid. Is Pioneer spam viable? In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pioneers vs Rear Echelon24 Jan 2022, 18:12 PM Jump back to quoted post24 Jan 2022, 16:16 PMProtos Angelus ...seen one rear echelon flank a lone MG42, and the MG42 crew, the other 3 models actually, went toe to toe with vet0 echelons and actually bled them, almost winning the fight... Since this is not the first time this is brought up I suggest provide some evidence of this because it seem highly unlikely. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pioneers vs Rear Echelon24 Jan 2022, 16:30 PM There was a time when RE spam was viable and things where pretty ugly, so I am not sure what some people expect from R.E. It not as as if spamming stock engineer units is a great tactic for any faction. As for the "test" it does not really say much. I would a expect a similar results if CE where behind cover instead of RE. One has also have to keep in mind that RE have access to smoke grenades and rifle-grenades in fighting position and combat bonus from vet 1. In: COH2 Balance