all I'm saying that CE are cheaper and better by a mile.
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We agree that CE are the most cost efficient stock engineer unit after the number of buffs it has received.
If you give every other faction a self repair, you'd see that there are a lot of reasons to build other engies...
USF's ability to self-repair makes RE redundant not bad. They can support a Pershing just fine.
...On top of that REs have extremely bad stock combat performance.
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RE's stock DPS is in line with stock CE DPS, so I do not see why you describe it as "extremely bad".
They also get one of the best vet 1 combat bonus. |
CEs are in another league, due to stock flamer, good mines and synergy with merge/m3 clown car. + If unit is cheap, that doesn't mean it should be automatically bad.
REs might be third weakest infantry combat unit (after medics and major).
I think there could be 3 ways thinking about what to do with REs:
-Buff their combat capabilities (like buffing ROF of carbines, or nerfing ROF and bumping damage to 9)
-Put an emphasize on their utility. Like giving acc bonus on zooks, increased building speed with sweeper, generally having faster mine clearing and barbwire cutting speed compare to other engies.
-Don't touch them and close the thread 
thekessvn claimed that "And again, RE reinforce cost is higher than normal engineer." which is factually false, SP/pioneers/RO are all more expensive to reinforce.
CE are cheaper to reinforce simply because they are cheaper to build and still follow original reinforcement ratio while RE should reinforce at the same price as pioneers. |
Consider RE spam is a thing, Would it be better than 2016 version ?.
Also when you lose one, Would you want to pay 200mp for sweepr squad ?. Yet need to pay 100-120 ammo for combat duty ?
And again, RE reinfor cost is higher than normal engineer. ....
Do you actually know the cost of reinforcement for each engineer entity or are you just ranting because "everything allied up and everything axis is OP"? |
dedicated usf main who is constantly under the rank 300 vs the strategy of a guy who won five games of USF in the span of 10 years
Charging smg troops in cover with carbine troops is choosing an unfavorable fight.
Using an unfavorable fight as an argument does not really make a good argument.
Rank does not change bad game play.
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Things also happen too fast. Things like grenades are impossible to dodge on the server for many people. Or Close Quarter units that erase your squad before your message to retreat gets to the server and back. It feels like bad server code was not a factor in the timing decisions for Coh2. Maybe that is why more people like vCoh???
I think that part of that happened progressively since many balance decision where to buff unit's DPS. Think power creep was quite strong in the game over the years. |
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I recently made a half track upgraded to MG that could not suppress a unit. The unit just walked right up to it take quad 50 cal to the face. Then I backed away and they just followed me across the map never being suppressed.
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I am not sure if I missed anything but I do have to point out that quad does not suppress on the move so if it moving it makes sense that it was not suppressing. |
I've tested it, it's above. If rifles charge pioneers in green cover, rifles win a pyrrhic victory. If rifles charge at pios in yellow cover, rifles win with 3 models remaining and <50% hp bar.
Pios, of course, can not charge rifles in any cover.
Basically, Pios offensive strength at the start of the match is good enough to stand up to rifles and not allow rifles to try and dislodge them from cover. Hence why pio + MG42 is extremely, borderline OP in 3v3s and lane-y maps.
One is not supposed to charge supported HMGs with infatry.
There is very little reason for riflemen to move close than 10 units of pioneer in cover
That is why USF have T0 mortar and access to smoke grenades. |
Yes, and no other squad is as cheap.
Partisan and Ro E are not that much more expensive and fight better.
No one said they compare to "actual" SMG assault squads that for the most part also come much, much later in the game and cost 50% more MP.
Many smg troops are available before minute 1, that includes assault grenadier/assault tommies/assault engineer/Ro Eng support.
I have simply pointed out that other SMG troops comes with abilities that allow them to fight in other situation than defending flank or ambushes behind vision blockers.
But pioneers starting at mid range beat Allied main lines in the early game, and they do that until min 5-10 as I described earlier.
If pioneer could beat allied mainline infatry pio spam would be viable, when it is not.
Or do you seriously want to debate that and stick with your 1 minute?
This is what I have posted and you are entitled to have a different opinion:
...As for pioneers they are not useful in combat past minute 1 unless under very specific conditions.
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That's not really true though.
Yes, don't charge them from max range across an open field and expect them to win. But literally all maps allow for closer range combat and have plenty of areas where you can ambush or simply manage to charge in from lower range. These are not very specific circumstances, they just work how all SMG troops work.
Other smg troops have a number of perks like sprint/smoke/grenades/better defensive properties/more entities/far better DPS/camo.
Pioneer are probably the worse SMG troops when it comes to combat (as they should given they cost/role/weapon).
Pioneer are not that good in fighting as suggested by OP and that can be seen by the fact that usually end the game at lower vet levels. |
Pioneers can decently vet up if they have a flame thrower, however usually only the ones that have been built early.
But my point was not about about pioneer veterancy. My point is that pioneers compare decently against enemy units at the start of the game. This dynamic does not change until the enemy units either get upgrades or combat bonusses from veterancy. And since vet1 is usually reserved for utility, vet2 is the first point at which the actual combat performance of pioneer vs XYZ is changed and pioneers become less effective.
Squads do not reach vet2 nor weapon upgrades within 2 minutes, that's why I said your point that they are "not useful in combat past minute 1" is an exaggeration. Pioneers are usable in combat for the first 5-10 minutes depending on various factors. Only afterwards they fall off.
Since they are an smgs unit that can not really charge vs most units their main fighting role is to defend vs flanks or ambush, thus as I have posted they are combat wise useful only in specific situations.
Rifle engineer units like CE and CE can contribute mediocre even from longer ranges.
The fishing capabilities of Pioneers are exaggerated by OP. |
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