Profile of Vipper

It's job is to kill Tanks!

So does Su-76, Stug, Panther, M10 and JP but they are either good at killing medium tanks or heavies (or have other limitations) due to lower accuracy (especially on move) or lower penetration.

Not to get killed by what it's supposed to counter, as it happens way too often in live due to poor scouting options because it has barely anymore HP than a Stuart/Scott, now we might finally see it being an actually useful unit than something you build out of desperation because Sherman spam won't cut it.

1) M36 start with +5 visions bonus going up with veterancy (it even has bulletin for extra view).
2) My objection was not about HP buff but about the accuracy buff.
3)Sherman cut it just fine vs PZIVs and so does bazookas, atgs and Stuart.

My point is not that M36 should not be able to counter heavies/super heavies, my point is that it should not be able to snipe mediums doing 200 damage from range 55 with 100% chance by vet 2.

Lowering the accuracy will have very little chances vs heavies/supper heavies while it will give some breathing room to PZIVs.

whats the jacksons current moving accuracy penalty?

And all TD wit range above 50 should have their accuracy lowered.

In addition it only the Allied TD that have the same accuracy for more range that actually get bonus accuracy with veterancy allowing to snipe all allied vehicles.

Vehicle Range // accuracy // accuracy on move // accuracy bonuses
Stug // 50 // 6%/5%/4% // 0.50% //
Panther // 50 // 6%/4.50%/3% // 0.50% //
JP // 60 // 6%/5%/4% // 0.50% // x115% vet 4
Firefly // 60 // 8%/7%/5% // 0.75% // x130% vet 3
Su-85 // 60 // 5.50%/4.50%/4% // 0.50% // x130% vet 2
M36 // 60 // 5%/4.50%/3.50% // 0.75% // x130% vet 2
M36 AP // 60 // 6%/5%/4% // 0.75% // x130% vet 2



As you can see M36 is more accurate on the move from its axis counter parts and from Su-85 and get accuracy vet bonuses and more accuracy from AP rounds.

To make thing even worse axis medium tanks are more expensive because they have more armor but any advantage armor gives them is totally negate by the "heavy TD" allies have since they can hit and penetrate them reliably.

"Medium TD" should not be able to penetrate reliably tanks at max range while "heavy TD" should not be able to score "natural hits" vs tank at max range.

The changes of TD with range +50 to score a "natural hit" on medium tank at max range should be down to 50-55% in order to make investing in medium tank worth it since they have usually have around 100% to penetrate and some of them deal 200 damage.

Are people really against the buffs that will allow the only stock TD option that USF has to finally do it's job?

And what is it Job? to counter all enemy vehicles from max range? Why can't the JP do the same? Why is stug designed to counter mediums and Panther heavies? Why USF have all this options in dealing with PZIVs?

As I pointed out M36 should either have the Job of countering to heavies/Super heavies or it should simply changes place with doctrinal M10 which some people prefer over the M36. It not like USF have trouble dealing with PZIVs without M36s.

Creating a buffed more expensive version of the M10 is bad design imo.

Stug has 640 which means it can take three AT gun shots and snare with a little bit of HP left unlike the Jackson which will die

Stug -G has 560 HP (480 for -E) M36 has 600.

Couldn't that be applied to any medium tank like Cromwell, Sherman, or T-76 against Stugs, Panthers, or Jagdpanzer?

The range advantage of M36 over medium is 15 range. The range advantage of the stug is 10 and Stug runs the risk of being circle strafed by the fast Cromwell and T-34/76.

In addition the Stug has lower mobility, accuracy on the move, does less damage and can actually bounce at max range.

The Panther has although it has 5 less range than M36 has far less accuracy and it is not designed to counter mediums but to counter heavies.

That leaves the JP that does have more range than M36 but has pathetic penetration compared to it making suitable to counter mediums only since it straggles against heavies, although its cost is comparable.

If the Jackson far accuracy and new buff prove too much for Axis medium tanks then reducing it's far accuarcy should be compensated by heavies target size. Would that work? Maybe earning it's accuracy back through veterancy

Reducing accuracy would work and it something that should be done for all TDS with range over 50. In addition the target size of mediums could go down while the target size of the Super heavies could go up to further increase the difference.

I would take a bit further and lower the damage to 160 for most weapons and giving heavy TD extra damage vs super heavies (or have the extra damage via ability maybe AP rounds?).

The main thing is the Jackson still has a long reload time almost as worse as the Firefly which results it not being the optimal counter other medium tanks. Saying a tank destroyer can is a too much of hard counter to all tanks is a little baffling given. I'd agree with toning down the far accuracy slightly against medium tanks if these changes prove to be a bit much but the Jackson is still a paper thin medium tank that can be taken down fast if too reckless with it.

In this patch Stug has only 10 more frontal armor than M36 but less HP, less accuracy, less range,less damage, less sight and far less penetrations.

The M36 is far more forgiving than the stug, Su-76, Su-85 if one "is too reckless with it", due to sight bonus, turret, and speed.

The fact that Su-76, Su-85, Firefly, and M36 can snipe PZIV well beyond their range makes PZIV an expensive later version of T70 having a limited window of opportunity.

The chances to score a "natural hit" on mediums at max range simply needs to way down so buffing the accuracy of the M10 and M36 is a step in the wrong direction. Their accuracy should go down not up.