I would prefer if OKW got standard teching instead of all the goodies and resulting in weird unit placements like now. No other faction got changed drastically as OKW since beta.
Everything since WFA is non 'standard' and gets this and that plus some flaws. |
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Not gonna spend more time on this, think one viable solution was brought, people are not interested enough to read through or discuss it. I guess just do whatever the poll decides then, huh? |
The reason is purely cosmetic. There is no actual 60mm mortar in the game, it was always just a german mortar with an american crew.
The 81mm mortar is unique so there's no reason not to use it, and just put whatever stats they want on it.
Whatever you call it, the mortar in competitive edition mod doesn't perform as ridiculous as the current one, be it stats or cosmetics. Just take that one and it'll be fine. |
Still better than Allied AA, Soviet got M5 which is pure crap, the only other choice is IS-2 pintle,
USF got AA through AAHT which is squishy as wt tissues, Utility car which is ok and Sherman Pintle's MG. If USF goes Captain => Major you can forget about AA too.
UK got Bofor which locks out AEC and not really feasible for 1v1 and Centaur which is quite expensive and leaves UK wide open to tank rush.
So yeah Axis got very good AA compared to Allied. Every match they always either got 222 or Flak HQ which shut down planes real good.
I would prefer if all faction got non-fuel AA choice, about flak HQ even if you park it at your base it still have enough range to swat out planes from pretty much 2/3 of the map.
If this is only about anti air and OKW, as said before, there is pretty much no Air threat available to OKW. No AA needed against that faction. So then we're talking about mixed team games only, where only one Axis faction will have access to air support. And 'shut down planes' is arguable as well.
'it still have enough range to swat out planes from pretty much 2/3 of the map', no that is not true, surely not on team game maps. Use cheat command mod, try it out.... |
If it costs something as well as requiring teching up first to actually get, it's not free. It's as free as a tank that comes with pintle MG already.
It is also even more important to keep if base flaks are removed. There are only four OKW units that have any AA capability; Panzer4 Panther and KT through pintle MGs (that is, upgrade), and flaktrack- that's three tanks and a halftrack. All of T3 have no AA capability, and 2cm emplacements are doctrinal. OKW T4 is also the closest an OKW player has to a defensive emplacement, it's no wonder it does what it does. And it is not like AA will stop a plane if your men are distracting it.
Reduce AA range and it's pretty much solved. I'm all for it since it will prioritize shooting ground stuff than a an airstrike that's pretty much unavoidable.
As a side note I really wished any AA guns in this game can be toggled to AA/ ground mode. At least there's the micromanagement element to it, plus the benefit of player control. You can then rush a T4 if it's busy firing at a plane and the player forgets to re-toggle back to ground.
This 'free' accusation triggers people because it disregards any context altogether. If you read elchino7s last post maybe we could reach an agreement here. Not that I don't see your point in relation to all that's been written here. |
mortar is a force multiplier. 4 rifles + 1 mortar is better than 5 rifles. There are some stuff that rifleman just can't do, namely acting as artillery and removing machine gun from a safe distance with either explosive or smoke.
the mere existence of a t0 mortar make the USF that much more deadly and make it more diffcult for the wehr to survive that harrowing early game. Not only does the wehr have to worry about rifleman, they now also have to worry about a mortar.
And USF doesn't need a mortar to survive the early game. They have always held the early game advantage with their rifleman and superior light vehicle. If the USF lose, it's usually because they let the game lapse into mid-late game where the axis traditionally dominate.
the only discernible effect of a t0 mortar unit is to strengthen the USF's early game dominance and provide the USF with less incentive to buy the grenade upgrade.
Remember that the USF's primary smoke dispenser was the grenade upgrade. A mortar basically eliminate the need to buy the grenade upgrade in the early game. You also don't have to worry about munition early on as well. The most abundant resources in the early game is your manpower, and a mortar just capitalize that fact.
and the 60mm mortar feels like it's trying to be both crappy and useful at once. I don't see the 60mm mortar being that useful into the late game. It's a niche unit solely meant to boost the USF's early game where they honestly don't need the help. It's trying to boost "diversity" at the cost of balance.
the availability of an early mortar tube only exacerbated the ease at which the USF buy their stuart. Without the need to buy the grenade upgrade early on, the USF can rush Stuart that much faster.
Trying to dismiss the effect of an early mortar unit on the USF teching speed is missing the larger picture. Unless some drastic changes is made to the stuart or the ost, I don't see a t0 mortar fitting into the USF.
While that is not wrong as such, I think the 60mm version will make the choice less of a no-brainer as it actually result in less map presence and bares some risks. Atm what is annoying is that the 5th unit for most guys is almost always a mortar that will pay off quickly if just placed somewhere safe and then left unattended for a good while into the game.
The reason for giving the mortar to USF (correct if I'm wrong) was if Wehrmacht goes for double MGs or such, sticks them into dominant garrisons, they would be forced into the early grenade upgrade. The current version is efficient regardless of what your opponent opts for and doesn't demand much micro. with a weaker version I think you'll actually see more variety in choices, regardless of an early stuart there would be some risk involved that can backfire. |
Please do not nerf the OKW anymore. It would be like taking away the crutches of an old man that already has a hard time standing.
I don't think the most recent proposal here constitutes an overall nerf. Depending on specifics in implementation this addresses both sides. |
USF was generally doing that prior to the the mortar being used and they still can do it. 4 rifles into Captain or now 3 Rifles and a mortar into Captain. Grenades themselves are more of a mid-game upgrade when things are settled and you're now in the process of beefing up the Riflemen.
I don't get how adjusting the mortar will make it useless if we were to take the CE mod mortar for example. It can still block off garrisons with smoke and provide some damage against infantry, but doesn't do enough to force weapon teams to retreat by itself, is prone to getting counter-bombed, but does has the ability to keep up with aggressive riflemen. It also won't overlap with the Pack Howie.
Furthermore, giving it less range, means its easier to attack the mortar itself and harder to hit units that are operating in the back aka MGs. You probably won't kill it, but it's much easier to force off and means the USF can't simply keep it back without micro.
I'll say it again, USF needed a mortar, but they did not need an 81mm.
Also, if you're complaining about the Stuart as well, make a topic for that and how USF can generally rush out their light tank the fastest and how it can lockdown the majority of the lights/outright kill them with the push of a button.
Imho, Riflemen early-mid game, even with a mortar aren't an issue. The issue is how fast the USF can pump out their light tanks to bring that shock value forward when faction such as Ostheer might be just getting their first Pak out or their own LV without much room to grab AI units like PGs due to the need to counter light armour and no real method to force the USF to react outside of pissing them off with snipers. OKW, at least during a period of time, can start to heavily pressure USF and they'll have things like StGs coming online along with grenades which Rifles can't deal with unless upgraded or doing it from the start with the Sturm + Kubel push.
All of that makes sense to me. Was there a reason given why the 60mm was not implemented to begin with? |
Since i'm not gonna go through the whole discussion (and i should just clean that 1v1 discussion but let's move on) and read all pages i'm gonna summarize my opinion on the subject.
Note: it shouldn't be isolated changes rather than take this as a whole.
1- AA in the game is outdated. Both how the mechanics to take down a plane and the capabilities through different factions.
M5 AA performance is sad and people joke accordingly that the IS2/ISU gunner are just plain better. For cost, Ostwind is not amazing compared to Centaur and the Flak HT remains a "badly bugged" unit (AA is good/fine for both USF/OKW HT).
For options: see Mirage approach on the subject.
2- Flak bunker in base are not required right now, specially when OKW now get's access to snare. Simil reason, i don't see why USF get's extra MG bunkers on it's circular base.
Remove extra bunkers and replace flak bunkers with MG bunkers. This "decent" flak bunkers could replace the ones which are on the commander slot for OKW.
3- Finally we arrive to the Schwerer. I do think the AA gun should require an upgrade BUT i think it should be done with this other changes.
3.1: Medics no longer requires an upgrade. Building T1 comes with the medics.
3.2: Deploying T3 (Schwerer) cost from 1/2 to 2/3 of it's current cost. It comes without the gun and ONLY have access to Obers + JPIV
3.3: Unlocking the AA gun cost 1/2 to 1/3 PLUS the current medic cost. This unlocks the AA gun and gain access to PIV + PV.
3.4: KT requires that the T3 must have been upgraded once.
The AA gun capabilities should be a toggleable option with a long cooldown. Either you want it to focus on AA or against ground threats (Simil to ISU behavior).
The point of the changes is to keep the current total tech cost, while slightly buffing the midgame from OKW (healing, Obers timing and somehow early access to AT tank). Replacing T3 shouldn't be as hard nor the only option after losing it been a call in tank or KT.
Sounds reasonable to me, like a lot of the changes that miragefla proposed. |
Effective? Not.
Efficient? Yes.
They lack vet bonuses to become effective, but they can be efficient when vetted and spammed. Still being hardcountered by HMGs and any kind of vehicle with crush.
As for AT weapons from weapon racks, they always should be on cheapest possible squad-USF rifles being exception because of AT nade.
Soviets, Wehr, OKW have no weapon racks. So handheld AT is only available to the expensive or even doctrinal squads, namely Sturms, PGrens, Guards. |
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