The Flamethrower thing is a bug.
The issue is deeper, and has to do with Brit Infantry as a whole. I'll just quote my answer from a similar-named thread 2 months ago:
Broken? Not really. (has REs spam become a thing, now, and I missed the memo?)
Overperforming for their cost? Definitely. However we need to make the following distinction:
- Their call-in cost is cheap for a 4-man squad, and dirt-cheap for a 5-man squad
- Their reinforcement cost is OK-ish (compare to other line infantry for instance)
- They cost the same-or-more popcap as other line infantry
However, before we go ahead and balance the only non-underperforming infantry of the Brits let's have a look at the bigger picture.
Spamming Tommies doesn't work; Tommies are a bit meh for their cost, and you will bleed heavily.
Spamming Sappers doesn't work either; sure, on 1v1 with other infantry, they are cost efficient. However, they have a very low range and can be cattle-prodded with MGs very easily.
You are meant to use both of them at the same time so that each unit's advantages covers the other unit's disadvantages.
Tommies
Tommies cost 280MP, and are probably priced with their 5-man version in mind.
For a 4-man squad, Tommies are extremely overpriced at 280MP. Part of that call-in premium goes towards:
- Tommies' received accuracy at Vet0 (-20%)
- Is probably meant to be recuperated by more cost-efficient units (Sappers).
Tommies, however, suffer from the following:
- Cover penalty
- Severe moving accuracy penalty
- Their Vet3 penalty bug (weapon pinatas)
- They scale well, but not as well as other infantry in the game (if you compare the bonuses)
- Part of the reason behind this scalability lag is that they already get some of the benefits at Vet0
- Unless you plan on blobbing your entire army, the faction design forces UKF to have at least 2 Tommies so that they get access to healing
I will leave it up to you to decide whether 280MP is a fair price for a 5-man Tommy squad.
Sappers
Sappers are very generously priced for a 4-man unit. Of course, this cost becomes insanely low considering that Sappers can become 5-man squads.
Their Vet0 reinforcement cost is not that bad. They cost 7/8 popcap and are meant to act as line infantry to cover up for Tommies' weaknesses.
The combat bonuses they get are at:
- Vet0 (0.8 reinforcement cost)
- Vet1 (Stens fire faster when in cover -- currently it's bugged and affects ALL weapons)
- Vet3 (Additional received accuracy bonus, Halved reinforcement cost)
Now:
1. Sappers cost equal/more popcap than other line infantry.
2. The Vet3 Reinforcement cost bonus is outright OP and needs to be thrown out immediately IMO (or moved to Conscripts)
3. The call-in cost could be adjusted to be fair. However, it would also be fair to adjust the Tommies' callin cost at the same time.
4. I don't know if one of the received accuracy bonuses needs to be reduced.
5. Alternatively, their Vet0 received accuracy bonus could be tied to a specific Veterancy tier.
6. However, this unit receives no offensive vet bonuses at all (apart from the recent bug).
Overall, as a line-infantry, Sappers get very tanky-kind-of veterancy. That, coupled with the Heavy Engineer upgrade makes them extremely difficult to eradicate. That is, until you figure out that you should be using grenades against them.
(Excluding the recent bug), none of the bonuses affects their offensive capability with equipped weapons. This means that you need Tommies to dish out the damage, and it probably makes sense to have Sappers to soak up the damage.
That's right. No matter how much munitions you sink into Sappers, Tommies will still be able to deal more damage with equal (or less) amount of munitions invested.
Provided that this is balanced, I think that's good design (as opposed to spamming Rifle-Rifle-Rifle or Volks-Volks-Volks)
Weapon teams
If we nerf Sappers, UKF will lack a low-reinforcement utility-only unit to reman weapon teams.
Currently, we have:
- USF has RE for 25MP-a-pop (a bit overnerfed) -- no special utility
- Soviets have Conscripts for 20-a-pop -- no special utility
- OKW has Volks for 25-a-pop -- no special utility
- OST has Pioneers (25-a-pop) or Osttruppen (20-a-pop) -- Pioneers have a passive sight bonus. Osttruppen reinforce very very very fast
- UKF has Sappers for 26-a-pop -- Sappers have a 0.8 received accuracy
(Btw, Vickers is also overpriced at 280MP. Shouldn't we also fix that too?)
Conclusions
1. The Sappers Vet3 reinforcement cost bonus (13MP) is ridiculously OP and needs to go.
2. Don't fix Sappers further unless you also plan on fixing Tommies too.
3. Otherwise, don't come here to complain when UKF starts spamming nothing but snipers and emplacements as their line infantry.
I was actually wrong on two things:
- Royal Eng IS a thing (because Tommies suck if you don't do emplacements/mattress). If you think that Tommies don't suck, please link a replay to this thread: https://www.coh2.org/topic/52856/how-do-you-use-tommies-request-for-replays
- Flamethrower (even a normal one) on Royal Eng might be a bit too much given that they can come out 5-man, and with their initial received accuracy. Better fix that one doctrine though, than break the faction for everything else (else it's snipers/emplacement spam).
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It's a pretty frustrating mechanic to play against at times but it's important to keep in mind that no commander with infiltration units has any form of late game armor call-in.
<snip>
I understand that your concern is that if we "defang" infiltration units too much, the containing doctrines will be entirely undesirable. However, let's examine what's going on in these doctrines.
I think that's mostly #SovietProblems. The other 3 factions have a very complete unit composition (thus not relying on doctrines; OKW, OST), or achieve full-unit composition with that particular commander (e.g., Brits with the Land Mattress). Hopefully the new June patch will address some of the reliance of Soviets to doctrines.
Brits and OST have these units on doctrines with pretty strong late-game abilities:
- Elite Troops (Tiger Ace)
- Encirclement (That arty; which is a gimmick; which every other ability in the commander conspires towards)
- Mobile Assault (Land Mattress -- do I need to say anything more?)
For OKW you have:
- JLI, which are pretty damn strong, even if you can't spawn them from buildings (also VERY cheap considering that they CAN spawn from buildings)
- Falls, which have faust, which will no longer be as essential with the coming of Faust-Volks. Apart from "Valiant Assault" schreck-blobbing, I wouldn't see any use for that commander anymore.
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I have a challenge for the readers of this sub-forum.
Suppose you do NOT want to build ANY emplacements (no pit/bofors). Also suppose that you have no access to bullshit DLC commander abilities (i.e., no land mattress, counter-battery or Vanguard officer charge).
Show me the best usage of Tommies you have ever seen in a replay (top-tier game)
- vs OST
- vs OKW
(Current patch. I prefer aggressive style of playing. Ideally, 2v2 and above, but any replay will work).
The requirements are:
- The player has fielded at least 3 Tommies at the same time (Tank Hunters don't count!)
- At most one Sniper present at the same time
- The number of Tommy squads fielded had a positive impact on the player's game.
Basically, try your best to convince me that:
- Other units would not perform better than Tommies for the given role (e.g., Vickers, Sappers, Snipers)
- Tommies are worth their current price-tag for the combination of utility/combat they offer.
I know the post sounds a bit negativist, but I'm really trying to explore what is the best I should expect from Tommies:
- Hold-out infantry against tanks?
- Digging in/being annoying to uproot?
- Crazy-good late-game-scaling terminators?
- Or just weapon-pinatas only useful for their medkits?
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On-topic: Brits have Weapon Racks so that Tommies can give the enemy access to Bren guns.
On-topic (serious this time): Because (what is supposed to be) the Brit mainline infantry has no utility save for trench-building or being the sole healing option for that faction. Their (Vet3, 5-man) DPS-on-the move is inferior to (Vet0, 4-man) Soviet Combat Engineer squads.
Also, it's not like the weapon rack system gives cheap squads access to the hardest-hitting AT weapon in the game! Oh wait...
Off-topic: Commandos are amazing, both as a combat unit (if you use them right), and as a design concept.
Specialist units should be given roles that your mainline infantry has trouble accomplishing. Otherwise, it's either the specialized infantry or the mainline infantry that becomes redundant:
- If the specialized infantry is not cost-efficient enough, why ever use them? (Why bother with 4-man Obers, when you can have 5-man Volks with infiltration nades? Why ever pay more for less?)
- If it's the mainline infantry becomes redundant, this just messes up with the preservation system (pre-Rifleman buff, you needed to get rid of Riflemen to replace them with Airborne squads).
I like Brit-infantry design better because there is better role attribution:
- Your mainline infantry is tanky, cheap, can repair
- Commandos are there to help you break up the pak-wall, ambush capping squads, etc.
- You have access to a utility unit that can heal your units on the field.
That way, there is always something to gain by maintaining a diverse squad roster (e.g., better access to on-field healing).
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Some infiltration units (Partisans and JLI) are extremely cheap for what they offer. However, as Miragefla briefly explained, the issue is more general, and has to do with infiltration units.
If it was restricted to friendly or even neutral territory, sure, but not enemy territory.
That could be one solution.
Another solution which would allow infiltration units to spawn from any building, without being completely hair-tearingly annoying would be the following:
- All infiltration units spawn with default rifle weapons (like Stormtroopers), and NO ABILITIES
- In order to get access to their hard-hitting weapons and abilities, the infiltration units will have to complete a combat pack upgrade
- The upgrade costs NOTHING but takes 30 seconds to upgrade
- Infiltration units that currently get no stealth no stealth at Vet0 (e.g., Falls, JLI), get a rudimentary version of stealth at Vet0, similar to OST camouflage (if you move, the stealth is gone).
The idea is that you spawn your unit, you keep and them stealthed somewhere while you research the upgrade. Once the upgrade is done, you can use your unit as intended. This forces the player to pre-plan their infiltration attacks, rather than pull yet-another infiltration unit out of their arses in mid-combat.
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If you are hearing people complain about "uncounterable Brit emplacement spam cancer", it's because they have a very short memory.
This atrocity:
... was a thing that took two months (and two patches) to resolve (when OKW was reworked, eventually). Pak Howitzer and LeIG would insta-pin any infantry squad they hit.
Note that pre-nerf both units had an insanely low firing angle (10%)which made the projectile nearly undodgeable. LeIG had an even longer auto-attack range (at 115, equal to the current mortar pit). Couple this with rushable JP4 and FlakHQ with 2 OKW, and you can see the incredible salt-mine potential these patches had.
So yeah, that thing completely killed teamgames off for nearly two months. The meta revolved around:
- LeIG spam into FlakHQ completely nullifying any infantry play.
- OP Crocodile coming into the field, making all Axis infantry/support weapons completely irrelevant.
- If Axis survive, they get an OP Elefant/JT to counter OP Crocodile, also making all Allied armour completely irrelevant in return.
- Whoever wins, we lose.
And that's it. For two months. If I have to put my finger down on any single reason why I registered on coh2.org in the first place, it was the Leigfest that brought me here.
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It didn't.
The brit system was stupid. Super PIAT/Bren blob? No thank you.
The wehr system was stupid. Unit preservation? Why? Just make a new blob/tank army. That was horrible in larger team games.
The USF system was nice, and the PE system was rather cool. But don't fix what ain't broken.
Quoted for Truth!
The veterancy system in vCoH did not work right. At all.
The veterancy system of Brit/PE rewarded blobbing way too much; and what were those two factions known for? Blobbing is something to be discouraged.
Then, you have the extreme difficulty at attaining Vet for troops, since you actually needed to score a kill, and not simply damage the vehicle/infantry.
The only aspect of that system that I still consider somewhat interesting was the PE veterancy specialization. However, once you sat down and pulled the veil, you would really see that there is only one way of specializing your troops that really made sense (sort of like figuring out the optimal locations to lay down emplacements as the Brits; you only need to figure this out once). Thus, the cookiecutter combos were:
- All vehicles get defensive vet (for uber race-car speed)
- Close-range infantry get all defensive vet
- Everybody else gets full-offensive vet.
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3)Avoid mixing weapon with completely different optimum ranges.
That's a good insight. I'll refine it as follows:
".. or if you choose to mix weapons with different optimum ranges, make sure that the squad prioritizes holding onto the long-range weapon, than the short-range one"
That way the attacker has the option of "tenderizing" the squad from afar with snipers/artillery etc, before it is safe/cost-efficient to make a close-quarters push (which should resolve the confrontation faster).
Yes, that gives mixed-weapons squads behind cover an advantage, however it is a bit more multi-dimensional than "sit at max range and try to bleed the enemy as much as possible). When would you ever choose to move in to close range, if the squad holds onto 3 PPSh?
A good example of how NOT to mix weapon upgrades is the new Penal (after they removed the PPSh). Long range DPS, and a flamer that sits on the squad until the very end.
A)conscripts PPsh upgrade is bad upgrade because weapon are designed to have different optimum ranges. In order to "fix" this Relic chose to increase the mid DPS of the PPsh. The end result is that Con PPsh becomes better than shock PPsh above range 10. Simpler solution and better solution would to make the upgrade provide SVT.
C)The patch upgrade for the V.G. of mixing Bolt action rifles and "assault rifles" again fall in the same category. The option here could be to have the St44 fire in semi automatic mode and have a weapon profile closer to semi automatic rifle, or (and I go into this more extensively later) have the weapon upgrade replace all the weapon of the squad.
Those are/will be two examples of squads you should sit and max range and try to bleed with snipers/whatever. We'll have to see how interesting Volks will look like gameplay-wise after the meta-strategy resettles.
B)"Heavy sapper" upgrade is a bad upgrade for the same reason the solution by Relic was to the movement penalty which goes against the Smg the unit is equipped with. A simpler and easier solution would be to to have the heavy "Sapper upgrade" to either provide the vickers K and bolt action rifles or turn the Vickers K into an "assault gun" type Lmg to have better synergy with the Smgs.
This one is the lulziest upgrade of all lulzy upgrades ever.
- It's not about optimum ranges here; it's about the fact that LMGs can't be fired on the move, whereas SMGs require you to move close to be useful.
- The real reason the movement penalty is absolutely necessary is not the LMG. It's the armour bonus (effectively increases Sapper HP by x2 vs small arms fire).
I would argue that Heavy Sappers would be one of the healthiest mixed-weapon squads in the game if we removed the movement penalty AND the armour bonus (also adjusting sapper price and their reinforcement costs at Vet3, and made Vickers_k take up 1 weapon slot):
- Just bleed them a bit from afar with *something*
- Once their SMG squadmates are down, it's safe/better to move in close.
Currently, the whole bundle of:
- 1 LMG
- Armour bonus
- Movement penalty
- EXTREME Repair speed
.. is extremely awkward. Combat-wise, Sappers are sitting ducks against anything with explosives, and the movement penalty gets in the way of their utility. On the other hand, if you don't have explosives, good luck bleeding those Sappers.
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I also agree with Firesparks, in that I literally see ZERO reasons why I should ever pay for an AAHT, when I can get an mg34 for cheaper. Essentially, the AAHT is the new penal :3
However, I am not convinced that giving the AAHT AT capabilities would be the right way to go here (or we will be creating a new monster). The reasons are:
- Blobbing around AAHT
- OKW is still the best-equiped faction to deal with light-tank rushes
In fact they now have more options about how to deal with that (which means they can choose how to mix and match them):
- An AT gun that can still cloak
- Early access to schrecks
- Also, an option to faust
That is to say, if OKW managed to fend off light vehicles alright so far, they should be able to do so better with the new patch (In the beginning of the game, access to schrecks is bottlenecked by the munitions income, rather than MP income -- i.e., how many Sturms you are willing to make).
Thus, I think that the AAHT should remain vulnerable (but not yolo-rushable) to rushing light tanks. What I would recommend is a QoL change, for starters:
- Give AAHT access to smoke at Vet0 (but make it cost munitions); that way you can support infantry pushes with it
- Fix the damn damage of flak vehicles vs garrisons, already! (by upping the accuracy modifier).
(the OKW AAHT is probably the only vehicle in the game that can lose to a Brit sniper garrisoned in a trench).
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Like this, there were several other things. Although, IMO, i would had rather adjust a couple other things instead of simply removing the resource penalties.
Many things could have been balanced around OKW, even if they had kept the resource penalty. However, there is one thing that would probably not work out that well: Fuel/Ammo supply drops. An OKW player that picks these drops would get an inflated amount of resources from it.
The best way to address that, while still giving a semblance of "rare" vehicles would be to 1) remove the resource penalty and 2) simply bump the fuel/ammo prices of pretty much everything. |
Romeo
Mr Smith
Luciano
Mr Smith
Relic Entertainment
