the bofor suppression barrage need its range lowered to 60 meters from 80 meter. The suppression barrage basically allow the emplacement to counter its own counter, the mortar. As the ostheer you're basically locked into the mortar HT in order to counter the emplacement.
the mortar emplacement should have its auto fire range lowered to 80 meters. 115 meter is far too much coverage. maybe lower cost to 360 mp to compensate. the emplacement can still use its 115 meter barrage range to attack distance enemy.
All of these, basically!
Sim city will still remain annoying to take down. However, now you will get the chance to work around this, than being constantly harassed by mortar fire.
One of the most ungratifying aspects of this mechanic is that you can't really use your infantry when attacking it (or, infantry has to be relegated to a secondary role). Ostheer never had a chance in that department to begin with. However, even with the new OKW, now that Schrecks and Incendiary nades are located on different units, things will be a bit more problematic.
the tommies' artillery flare should get a range buff back to 35 meters. It's a ridiculously easy to dodge artillery due to the obvious red smoke and long delay. The only thing that can't reasonably dodge it is the immobile okw truck or ost bunker.
Regarding the Arty Flare, there are two issues:
1) In order to get the best out of any artillery ability, you have to aim for the centre of an enemy concentration. That way, each overshooting/undershooting shot has a chance to hit something. However, given the high scatter of the ability, you practically have to hug the enemy to throw the flare somewhere nice. Range increase will help with that.
I've no idea why they reverted the range increase. I've also no idea why the sniper (which requires no forward investment) gets a better range than Tommies (for which you sacrifice healing kits). Yes, it's risky to use the sniper for this, but you get what you paid for!
2) Even if pick a nice target for the ability, the base howitzers lack the stats to threaten ANYTHING. Thus, the ability feels useless (until you have teched Anvil).
- The AoE is pathetically small. Thus, the ability can't threaten infantry
- Penetration is set to 160 (same as damage). Thus, the ability can't threaten tanks
- The scatter is quite high. Thus, it can't threaten static emplacements either.
It doesn't have to be good at everything, but it has to be decent at something.
Requiring the samey type of unit to counter another samey type of unit is a bit one-dimensional, and it's a sign that design went wrong somewhere:
- Requring snipers to counter snipers
- Requiring indirect fire to counter indirect fire
- (in the past) requiring Elefant to counter the ISU
Thus, it might be better to just fix the design deficit (Mortar Pits, Brace) which should open up more counter options, rather than breaking the game further (Sim City -> Artyfest).
Note, that there are two components when it comes to calculating your chance to hit.
- Accuracy (i.e., heat-seeking projectiles that will follow the target)
- Scatter (i.e., shots that miss that collide with objects; maybe even the original target itself)
Even when you are practically hugging a target, your shots can miss the accuracy roll. However, the scatter roll will guarantee that your projectile will collide with the target.
Accuracy is more important when your target is big (e.g., a tank). Scatter is more important when your target is small (e.g., infantry) and your base accuracy sucks (i.e., most tank weapons).
Moving affects both components (accuracy and scatter). However, stat.coh2.hu only shows the moving accuracy penalty. The scatter accuracy penalty for more tanks is "2" (thus, I suspect the area becomes 4x as big). However, some tanks have no scatter penalty. Notable examples are the T70 and the Easy8.
Thus:
- When you are chasing after tanks, it makes sense to tap "Stop" just before you fire the shot.
- When you are kiting infantry, it might make sense to "Stop" just before firing, (except for when you are using T70 or E8).
- When you are chasing after (retreating) infantry, it might make sense to ignore the "Stop" micro altogether and close the distance, anyway. You can't miss while hugging infantry!
PS: You can also use the "Stop"-dancing micro trick to eliminate for moving accuracy penalties on infantry, too.
The panther almost always penetrates and that 1.5 increased damage was an insane buff. Reducing it to a mere 1.25 and also giving the panther itself a 1.25 RA is a bit over the top IMO.
The ability needed a tone-down, IMO, since it was used as a cheap veterancy-wiper.
What the new ability does is make the target easier to hit (by 25%) and also make them take 25% more damage. If you multiply the two, that's a 56% bonus. That's still a slight buff to the ability, that now trades a stupidly-high burst damage with more consistency.
However, if you look at the bigger picture, you will see that I lied a little bit:
- Most of the times you will be using that ability, your Panther(s) will be hugging the target anyway. Thus, any missed shots would still hit, due to the scatter rolls.
- OKW vehicles come equiped with the "Combat Blitz" abilities which, among other things, boosts their accuracy by 100%. Thus, if you really wanted to burn a lot of munition to wipe a veteran unit, you also had the option to activate Combat Blitz at the same time, which would (over)compensate for the moving penalty.
Moreover, when used on full-health tanks, the new Mark Target will not be really useful vs Mediums. To benefit from the 25% damage kick, you need to be hitting targets that take more than 4 shots to go down:
- Panthers and tank guns vs heavy-mediums and above (T34/85, Comet, Easy8)
- Panzerschrecks vs mediums and above will still benefit, but not as much.
With respect to fairness, Soviets burn an ability slot for "just" 35% damage. OKW gets a Command Panther on top of that.
LMG needs to research T2 it is quite probable that Penal will already have vet 1 by LMG time and vet 1 gives a fighting bonus to them contrary to Grens.
As I said the problem is not that Penal are better than average in FAR they are also very good in other rangers also. That make relative positioning against them not very rewarding...
A similar issues probably exist with St44 VGs.
Relative positioning is always rewarding, as long as there are relative differences in DPS. For instance, in the Grens vs Volks example, there is absolutely no reason to spend microing that fight. If you are winning, you will continue winning regardless of the distance.
In the Penals vs Grens case it will still be rewarding, even at Vet0, and even with no LMG. If it's 1 Gren squad vs 1 Penal squad then, yes, you will lose the engagement no matter what (that's frustrating).
However, if you put 5 grenadier models vs 6 penal models (equal MP investment), you will be winning long-range engagements.
Thus:
- If your opponent spams nothing but penals, and you decide to spam nothing but grens, vacuum analysis says you will win, if you keep fighting long range engagements.
- Otherwise, you need a force multiplier (MG, sniper), and try to survive until the LMGs/222 arrive.
- From then on, you have the advantage as your army is better equipped to handle other kinds of threads (modulo Partisans).
Now, if you are concerned about Merge, you can take away some DPS off Penal rifles and turn it into native target size. Thus, a merged conscript will always be significantly weaker than the Penal it is supposed to replace.
As I say don't have the actual numbers so I can factor in the veterancy bonuses...but as I said the more veterancy the better Penal get...
From these numbers, I am getting that when you put 1 LMG Grenadier squad (240MP, 60MU) against a Penal squad (300MP) and both of them are at Vet0, the 240MP squad will still be able to trade cost-efficiently at ranges 25 or greater. I'm not even taking into account the fact that the DPS of the LMG will carry over to the next model.
Now, if both the LMG gren squad and the Penal squad achieve Vet3, and you pit them against each other, the Penal will ALWAYS manage to trade cost-efficiently vs the LMG-Gren squad, regardless of range. To make the trade a bit more even, the LMG-Gren player will have to pit more LMG-Gren squads against the penals.
In your example, where you had 1 Vet3 Penal vs 1 Vet3 LMG-Gren, the trade ended terrible for the LMG-Gren. This is OK, since the Gren squad was outnumbered there (300 MP vs 240 MP). However, what would happen if you put an equal amount of MP there (e.g., 5 Penal squads vs 6 LMG Gren squads), or 1 LMG-gren squad that is fighting against a Penal squad that has been brought down to 4-5 models?
Now, when I mention trading, I am assuming an equal investment of MP for both players. A 240 grenadier should NOT be able to trade cost-efficiently vs a 300 Penal. However, 300 MP worth of Grenadiers should at least be given a range where they can trade cost-efficiently (even if it's Soviet T1, and Penals have no other utility).
Cromwell, M10, speed-bonuses (Combat Blitz, Emergency War speed), etc were stupid. However, I am of the opinion to fix the offending units/abilities first, rather than remove a mechanic that helps immersion, and is not too abusive.
However, if crush is to be removed, there need to be compensating nerfs to handheld AT. Some ideas here:
- Longer aiming times
- Radically increase reloading time while squad is moving (not sure if it is possible to implement)
- Reload/Accuracy/Damage penalty if squad is not behind cover when firing the gun.
Penal are not allot more to reinforce due to 4 vs 6. Gren reinforce with 30 penal with 25...if you factor in merge Penal are even more cost efficient.
You replied faster than I could ninja-edit my post
I see your point now. At vet0 (with no weapon upgrades), there exists no single range where Grenadiers can trade cost-efficiently vs Penals. Penals cost "only" 25% more MP, but have 50% more durability. In order to trade equally, the Grenadiers have to find a range where they have 20% (= 1.5/1.25) more DPS than the Penals. Such a range does not exist.
However:
- How do Vet0 LMG grens DPS compare vs Penals?
- What about Vet3 LMG grens DPS vs Vet3 Penals?
Unfortunately don't have the actual number for the new Penal SVT, I am using the DPs provided by firespark.
So I can't factor in those parameters in graphs...
From testing thou, things become even worse for axis...When I tested vet3 LMG gren vs Vet3 Penal the Penal would lose win losing 1-2 entities (range about 35 heavy cover)...The vet bonuses for Penal all wrong. They get probably the best total accuracy bonus while the weapon fire way to often...
Main point here is that they have too much FAR DPS and most axis infantry do not even gain enough of an advantage by closing in.
I am of the opinion that Penals SHOULD be able to trade cost efficiently at mid-long range (and lose the trade at extreme long-range vs LMG grens), or be weaker at shorter ranges or something.
I agree that the cumulative Penal veterancy bonuses are too much (they are a bit like Vet4 OKW bonuses for some units). However, I wouldn't touch their accuracy Veterancy. Instead, I would start by removing their received accuracy bonuses.
In my mind, the new Penals are supposed to be a long-range shock unit. Thus, received accuracy is not as important as (offensive) accuracy, which would help you get a breakthrough (if the fight takes half a minute to resolve, there goes your flank).
Note that the Penal squad out DPS both Volks and grens at all ranges, (while both units are designed for long range) the weapon is simply too good at all ranges.
My takeaways from this graph are:
1. If I have Grenadiers fighting against Penals, I would try to force a long-range engagement. That's where the DPS gap is the narrowest. Sure. My grenadier squad would lose the fight, but that would cost more to the enemy than me:
- Penals cost a lot more to call-in/reinforce
- Soviet went T1, which means no AT. Grenadiers have faust by default. Utility wise I am way better off.
This is a bit like Osttruppen. The Osttruppen win very few engagements. However, they win battles by bleeding the enemy/forcing them to overcommit. You can count on them!
2. If I had Penals fighting vs Grenadiers, I would do my best to close the distance as much as possible. That's where the DPS gap is the largest. I don't know if I would bother relocating during the enagement though, as this would bleed my Penals.
3. We are lucky that we don't have Grenadier vs Volksgrenadier engagements in the game. That would be ultra-boring, as distance (or relative positioning) doesn't seem to matter at all (whoever moves first, loses the fight).
4. What does the DPS comparison look like when all squads are at Vet3 (or Vet5), and Grens/Volks have upgraded their guns? (you might have to normalise this by the relative squad hit points. Penals will lose their DPS slower than Grens).
You're getting the minesweeper for the mines only? Or does it affect the squad/accuracy/dps as well?
Don't you lose a weapon because you replace it with a sweeper?
You only lose a Sten (but you need minesweepering anyway though)
The thing about the minesweeper + vickers is that there is a bug (!!!). At Vet3 the two upgrades become mutualy exclussive (i.e., you can only have one of them). This means if you decide to skip going for both of them early on, you will lose that opportunity when you hit Vet3.