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Thread: I don't get why Brits are still receiving buffs7 Jun 2016, 15:55 PM However, to be fair. On the other hand, things are unfair when it comes to Cromwells vs P4's. The question is, by how much? How do you think fights play out in 1v1 if both tanks remain stationary? - When both tanks are at Vet0 - When both tanks are at Vet3 You can discover the answer here: (Tip: Click on the images to see them side-by-side) How do you think the fight will play out post-Cromwell nerfs? Note that while the images show that the Cromwell should have been made weaker relative to the P4, nerfing the Cromwell target size was not the only way to go: - We could have nerfed a different stat (e.g., Cromwell armour, some of the reload bonuses) - We could have buffed P4 penetration instead (No. Cromwells vs Panthers don't stand a chance. Even Vet3 Cromwells vs Vet0 Panthers). In: COH2 Balance
Thread: OKW (balance preview mode) - concerns and solutions7 Jun 2016, 13:02 PM Jump back to quoted post7 Jun 2016, 12:49 PMEsxile Maybe it is a flaw in the faction design, I can definitely agree on that. Now you also have to take some distance with the faction itself and see it through a global balance vision. Do you think the OKW faction, which is the best early game faction (0-5 minutes) will be balance if you can set up your healing building on the map when your early advantage comes to end and directly, from it, build a cheap (you said 50 fuel is too much) anti-everything HT (you said the truck could have some more dps)? I mean, we are in the balance section, I know the word is odd for many people who are only there crying for some buff to their beloved faction, but still, you have to think of it before making such changes. I see where the misunderstanding stems from. I am definitely NOT in favour of buffing the anti-vehicle capabilities of AAHT. This is because it will synergise with MedHQ turtling too much. Instead, what I proposed are some utility buffs that will allow the FlakHT to support infantry better on offensive pushes (e.g., smoke, transport, etc). In: COH2 Balance
Thread: I don't get why Brits are still receiving buffs7 Jun 2016, 12:48 PM Jump back to quoted post7 Jun 2016, 12:33 PMCardboard Tank The Panther has EXACTLY the HP of a T-34-85. If you push into enemy territory you get flanked and lose the Panther as fast as any other medium because it has NO high HP pool. Meanwhile you deliver less shots. Actually, your statement is incorrect because you forgot to account for: - The insane durability that high armour bestows to the panther - The Vet2 bonuses of the Panther At Vet0, the Panther has 320 Armour (compared to 160 armour on the T-34-85). - Since the T-34/85 has about 140 penetration, the chance to penetrate the Panther is only 43%. However, at Vet2: - The panther gets (20% extra HP. 800 -> 960) - Armour increases by 10% (thus the chance to get penetrated by the T-34/85 drops to 40%) Regarding your statement about the RoF, you aren't accounting for way-above-average penetration. Read here: If you think that the Panther is weak in this state, you are also probably thinking that the SU85 is getting butchered in the balance patch; or am I wrong? Source: https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-guide (Yes. Veterancy IS part of a unit). Jump back to quoted post7 Jun 2016, 12:48 PMSmiling Tiger Comets do not always lose against panthers because of their rate of fire, turn rate and accuracy on the move even though they are a more generalist tank. Comets actually lose very hard to Panthers. I have calculated the probabilities of winning for this engagement, and it looks like this: When both units are at Vet0 - The panther has 75-80% chance of winning on ranges from 0 to 40 - The probability drops to 51% at range 50 The lighter the portion of a bar is, the more HP the winning tank will have after the engagement. For instance, at range 25, the Comet has 30% winning chance. This can be broken down into: - about 20% chance of surviving with 160HP left - about 7.5% chance of surviving with 320HP left - about 2.5% chance of surviving with 480HP left When both units are at Vet3 - The Panther has 99.9% chance to win on ranges from 0 to 25 - The Panther has at least 95% chance of winning on ranges from 25 to 40 - The probability drops to 85% only at range 50 (Yes. The graphs also take into account that the Comet has been upgraded with the Tank Commander). Note that: - Range 50 is the max range. Thus, the Panther can choose to disengage whenever - It requires a spotter for either tank to be able to continue to trade shots. If, at any time, the LOS is broken, the Comet loses its advantage to use its slightly higher RoF. Thus, the Panther wins there, too. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: OKW (balance preview mode) - concerns and solutions7 Jun 2016, 11:53 AM Jump back to quoted post7 Jun 2016, 10:17 AMEsxile Why Ostheer has HMG42 and Ostwind? They reasonably do the same thing by denying infantry access. Why USF has M15 and .50 in the same tier? Why Sov has T70 and M5 in the same tier? To answer your question: - HMG42 is a suppression platform, and a light-vehicle hard-counter at Vet1. - Ostwind is an infantry/AT-gun murder machine There is literally no role overlap between the two. Ostwind also comes much later - 50cal is, literally, the worst MG in the game (even without taking its price/tech-branching into account). This is only rivalled by the Vickers. - the USF AAHT is an offensive platform that deals suppression on the move, like Soviet M5 The reason why I would ever choose a 50cal over AAHT is if I don't have fuel for the latter. You get what you paid for. If the FlakHT behaved exactly like the USF AAHT (suppression on the move, etc), we wouldn't be having this conversation. Currently: - MG34 is a middle-tier MG (definitely worse than the MG42. Not sure vs Maxim, after the nerfs. Definitely better than 50cal and Vickers). If you also factor MP-cost/popcap, it's definitely the most cost-efficient MG in the game. Since it's an MG, it's static in nature - FlakHT is also static in nature. The catch is, that if it is ever caught out of position, it's dead. - OKW gets AA defenses for free, and with no popcap attached. I can literally see little reason why anybody would ever field a FlakHT, when they have access to MG34. Jump back to quoted post7 Jun 2016, 10:17 AMEsxile Retreat and medic + HMG34 + ISG + maphack + upgrade pack isn't a good purpose? You can skip it for the heal if you are good enough to vet your sturmpio and use medic crates. It gives you a huge field presence bonus, the moment it is build up, no faction has the capability to destroy it. And on top of that you want more soft AI and AT power? unlike other factions, it doesn't deny you access to AT or support units (USF and Sov) Yes, part of the problem stems from the fact that OKW gets access to their entire range of support weapons, regardless of their teching choice. You might be also be thinking that since the Medic truck gives such an insane field presence advantage to OKW, it is fair that they get some disadvantages out of that too. However, think about it: - If you defang a faction from its offensive capabilities, they are going to turtle. - See Brits. Now, consider the sum of changes to OKW: - Stock Fausts, stock MG34, better AT gun. - Combine these with the maphax truck and long-range auto-fire artillery, and you have the recipe for campiness to the extreme - The FlakHT is undesirable here, since it delays the time until FlakHQ lockdown. I posit that if the opponent picks a Med Truck opening and is capable, you are going to wish you were facing Brit Sim City, instead. The Med-Truck -must- get some offensive tools, and it should also probably lose some defensive tools to prevent extreme campiness. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer feels really really weak (POLL)7 Jun 2016, 11:24 AM Jump back to quoted post6 Jun 2016, 08:29 AMSolidSteel There's only one problem here, Panther's firerate, due to its VERY low ROF and bad accuracy on the move, it just lacks punch for a tank of its class. Brummbar is getting fixed so that's my only beef with ostheer's tech progression. The Panther trades a bit of it's Rate of Fire (let's face it, it's not -that- slow) for: - Massively better penetration than its peers - Great Durability (HP/Armour) - Great speed - Insanely good veterancy bonuses If a Panther feels a bit not-too-strong at Vet0, it eats everything alive at Vet3. - If you feel like some of the Vet bonuses of the Panther should be gotten at Vet0 (like the Jackson buffs), I can empathise with you. - If you consider that the Panther needs a straight buff, you're insane. If you believe that the Panther is UP with its penetration and it's RoF, you must surely be believing that the SU85 is getting butchered in the next patch. In that case, if the opposition has gotten weaker, why does the Panther need a buff? In: COH2 Balance
Thread: OKW (balance preview mode) - concerns and solutions7 Jun 2016, 09:22 AM What Firesparks is asking for here is: 1) Give the AAHT a purpose. Would you ever pay 270 manpower (and that 50-odd fuel) for a fragile vehicle, when you also have access to the cheapest MG in the game? This is, especially given the AAHT's track record for being buggy: - Trees/etc clipping shots - Being completely useless vs garrisons 2) Give the Med Truck a purpose as a tech-tier building (i.e., not just the access-to-retreat-and-medics building). The T2 building gives you access to 3 powerful vehicles. Realistically you won't build more than 2 of them in a normal fight. However, T2 gives you more options to choose how to fight. T1 gives you what? Leig-spam + IRHT? Both problems are linked together with the fact that the AAHT becomes completely redundant, and offers very little added utility for its price. Instead of making AAHT a deterrent against light vehicles, though, I would rather reinforce AAHT's offensive synergy, which will allow OKW to better counter MG-spam cheese without having to counter-turtle (indirect-fire spam), which is boring (choose one of the following): 1) Give it some low-cooldown smoke projectors, or something, already at Vet0, so that OKW infantry get some access to smoke. 2) Make it come out as the stock OST transport halftrack, with the ability to transform into an AAHT. The HT doesn't asbolutely need to have the reinforce option; just the transport option should be enough. 3) Give the AAHT the ability to clear garrisons relatively fast. That way, if the enemy is camping garrisons, OKW can spearhead with the AAHT, and then move in with infantry. The reason I wouldn't want to reinforce the defensive capabilities of the AAHT too much (i.e., light-vehicle deterrent), is that doing so might reward OKW campy playing a bit too much: - Free FlakHQ lockdown is still there - OKW already has Leigs which are too powerful on the right maps when spammed - IRHT is there - .. and on top of that we have the cheapest MG in the game, that can also retreat to a FRP - That's just too much potential for turtling. Yes, everybody is still butthurt about Volksblobs. However, no faction deserves to have dead units and dead tiers in their stock. Especially given that this is supposed to be the jesus-patch that gives purpose to all those forgotten units/tiers. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: I don't get why Brits are still receiving buffs7 Jun 2016, 08:39 AM Jump back to quoted post6 Jun 2016, 16:46 PMButcher As I said. That design is about a strong lategame which they don´t have any longer. Thus the design is flawed. I´m not proposing a whole redesign of the faction: Some minor Panzergrenadier, Panther and Tiger buffs would suffice. Some small adjustments to Ostheer lategame are easier to do than adjusting all other factions accordingly. What are you on about with the Panther buffs? It's probably the most cost-efficent tank in the game, and can eat any other tank alive for breakfast. Once you attain the insane veterancy bonuses, the tank becomes unstoppable (short of a missplay vs TD-spam). This is because the Vet2 and Vet3 bonuses are insane. - If you are proposing moving a tiny portion of the Veterancy bonuses to Vet0 (like Relic did with the Jackson), I can empathise (it won't change much in the bigger modes, since Panthers hog Vet like crazy there, anyway). - If you are actually proposing adding a flat-out buff (e.g., rate-of-fire) at Vet0, on top of the veterancy bonuses, this is insane. Yes, the Panther has relatively low rate of fire. However the gun packs really high penetration which makes up for that, on the right targets. It's also worth noting that the gun comes on top of a very durable chassis (HP & armour). If you think that the Panther is weak in this state, you are also probably thinking that the SU85 is getting butchered in the balance patch; or am I wrong? In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer feels really really weak (POLL)6 Jun 2016, 07:56 AM The thing that peeves me with Ostheer is that, by the start of the game, I can already perfectly predict my army composition/build-order until T3/T4. The biggest culprit are some units that are so powerful, that they have become a no-brainer: - Is there ever any reason not to build the Sniper? - With that pricetag/versatility, is there ever any reason not to build at least one 222? (This leads to sniper + 222, and some fluff units around it). However, a nascent culprit is that OST lacks sidegrades: - Their cost is integrated into the teching cost. - However, lack of sidegrade options takes decision-making away from the player. The only real decision an OST player can make is between T3/T4: - Do I forego T4 and stick with T3? - Do I skip T3 and jump to T4 (only on certain modes) - Do I completely skip teching, since I have Stug-E's in my loadout? USF can choose among: - Faster teching - Nades - Racks - Healing UKF can choose among: - Faster tech - Racks - 5-th man - Bofors - AEC OKW can choose among: - Healing - Puma or Luchs Soviets can choose among: - Cheese - Cheese - Cheese - GTFO Jump back to quoted post6 Jun 2016, 05:53 AMIntelligence209 Being a combined arm fashion, it's hard to recrew weapon teams. Try using an unupgraded halftrack on the field. It works wonders to maintain your field presence. No, it's not as good as mashing the T-key WFA-style, but it works just fine for capping/recrewing team weapons. Halftracks are, literally, the only advantage EFA factions have over the others when it comes to this. I am not sure why people don't use them. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Calliope OP?6 Jun 2016, 07:19 AM Jump back to quoted post5 Jun 2016, 22:30 PMTobis For another comparison you have the puma already, which is the most popular Ost doctrine in 1v1. But even the Puma doesn't cover every single disadvantage of Ostheer early-game. Jump back to quoted post5 Jun 2016, 22:39 PMGrumpy It really is a tragedy and a travesty when a docrinal Allied unit is as good as a non-doc Axis unit. Axis units should always be better. That's how they won the war. My point is that the choice is completely bipolar: 1) If you don't pick the doctrine, your indirect fire options are shit (i.e., on par with UKF). 2) If you pick the doctrine, you are the god of indirect fire. Now there are two cases: - The faction has been designed to perform well without indirect fire. This means that they should become insanely strong when they ALSO get access to Calliope (and LMGs, and tier-free AAHT). Calliope is P2W. - The faction was shit to begin with, and absolutely needs the Calliope to perform in the late game. In this case, the Calliope doctrine is a pay-not-to-lose doctrine. Regardless of what situation the USF was in pre-Calliope, wouldn't it be better for the game if Calliope was weaker and (if necessary) USF core became stronger/more versatile? In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Calliope OP?5 Jun 2016, 21:22 PM Elchino basically nailed what the main issue with Calliope's performance is; the initial firing pattern is a lot like the Panzerwerfer (with stronger rockets than the Panzerwerfer iirc), which doesn't give the victim the time to react. A more-annoying aspect of the Calliope (and Land Mattress) is that: 1) They are stronger/on-par with the best non-doc indirect fire unit in the game (Panzerwerfer) 2) USF and UKF normally have no access to adequate indirect fire support. This means that the core of USF/UKF is has buffed in other areas (strong USF infantry, strong UKF tanks) to make up for that shortcoming. 3) They belong to DLC doctrines Couple #1 with #2, and you will see why those units are so frustrating to play against. Now, add #3, and the frustration only adds up (for the people that lack access to said units). How would people react to an OST doctrine that: - Gives Pgrens/Grens access to a 5th squad member - Allows Grenadiers to upgrade a 2nd LMG - Makes OST squads space-out more - Gives access to Panzer3 (or Hotchkiss, if you are Tobis) Basically, that's the same deal with USF/UKF and the respective doctrines. In: COH2 Balance