Profile of Horasu

I know these forums are... highly volatile, but let's begin with an open mind and thoughtful input.

With the two most recent changes, there have been a rise in a new SU meta: tank spam. Multiple T-34s, light vehicles, and the hottest topic of the hour, multiple SU-76s are seen on the field in almost every game. "Nerf!" the forums cry. "Too spammy!" I thought long and hard about the spam, how players feel being forced to deal with the spam, and how Relic has enabled the spam through their latest patches.

And I think we've been looking at this the wrong way.

I propose a radical thought: Why is having multiple tanks on the field at the same time by the same player a bad thing? The only thing inherently bad about tank spam is the slightly increased amount of frustration the opposing player experiences when dealing with something new. So I come to the conclusion that it is NOT A BAD THING. On the contrary, I think, in order to preserve the health of the game for longevity, tank spam is actually a good thing. For one, remember that the doctrine for Soviets has always been "strength in numbers." (I want to make it clear right now that I'm talking about game design philosophy, NOT HISTORICAL ACCURACY. I believe there's even a rule stating to not bring in history into balance discussion.) However, weirdly enough, before the patch, we rarely see more than 1 tank of each type on the field at the same time. Maybe 2 t-34/85s or something, but that was it really. But now SU can call in more than 1 t-34 or more than 1 su-76. I've even seen games with multiple t-70s. It really cements the "strength in numbers" doctrine, just like how Axis has always had a "better armor, better guns on tanks" doctrine since as far back as I can remember. Why is calling in more than 1 tank, a thing that Soviets are supposed to be able to do all along, such a bad thing? Do Soviets not deserve to have their own niche, in numbers?

People say that vehicle spam is a sign of a lack of skill, but let's look at it from the other side. Every Allied tank is inferior to its Axis equivalent. I would say, with the new fuel prices enabling it, tank spam was an inevitability to fight Axis armor. Necessity is the mother of invention, after all. Tank spam is merely a result of the NEED for more than 1 Allied tank to fight off 1 Axis tank. So if we see tank spam as an inevitable need rather than a lack of skill, the practice becomes much more justified.

There is a price for tank spam, by the way, guys. The price you pay is a LOT (and I mean a LOT) more micro compared to Axis armor. Imagine a typical engagement of an OKW Pz-IV vs. 2 SU-76s. Head on, the PZ-IV would most likely wipe an SU-76 and get away safely. To succeed, the Allied player would have to juggle reversing and keeping the PZ-IV at max range and having the PZ-IV switch targets to ensure a tank does not die. All the PZ-IV needs to do is right click where he wants to shoot, and reverse if things get sticky. You can imagine the Allied player easily having to click 3-4 times as much to ensure favorable results when he is pitting the equivalent of 150 fuel vs. 135 fuel.

I would go so far as to say this is Relic's intent all along. They WANT tank spam to be a thing. The patch notes that decreased T-34 fuel and put the SU-76 in t3 reflect on that I think. Call me a fool, but I have a little confidence that Relic saw the prices and intended for them to be slightly spammable. They DID look at fuel cost for su-76 in the past and saw fit to raise it by 5 fuel. They saw the t-34 fuel in the past and saw it fit to reduce it by 20.

So in conclusion, I think tank spam meta for SU is healthy for the game because it lets SU have (at least a semblance) a feeling of being in control by having a response to german late-game tank superiority by having numbers to match. Tank spam is not a result of a lack of skill, but the result of necessity due to overwhelming Axis tank power. The price they pay is a lot more micro. This is further proven (I think) by Relic's new fuel prices for all SU vehicles. They purposely gave Soviets a weapon to fight Axis through numbers. They didn't do this on accident, guys.







And finally, I want to address the hottest topic. Going in on this, I know a lot of people disagree with me, but let's keep things civil. The SU-76, although definitely spammy, has been the source of rage for a lot of people. The most common suggestion I saw was to reduce the penetration because it can have a chance to penetrate tigers and panthers. However, I believe that is not a good change. As a community, have you guys not always strove for less RNG in the game? We've seen that so much through the past year. Mortar nerfs, plane crash nerfs, flamethrower nerfs. All of these things are done to reduce RNG. Why should Allied tank guns be the exception? Why does OKW and Ostheer get to enjoy an RNG-free game with all the nerfs to Allied insta-kill abilities, while Allied players have to throw a dice to determine whether their Su-76 will pen a Panther 5 times in a row or not at all? It shouldn't. I say keep the penetration. Any lower and no amount of SU-76s will help against a good tank, ruining the tank spam meta. 60% is already a weird number where it can fail to penetrate MANY times when you need it to, anyway. Let its weaknesses be apparent elsewhere: Its weak HP, weak armor, long and inaccurate barrage (seriously, people who SU-76 has anti-infantry because of it, have you guys ever had your squads wiped to its barrage ability? Please tell me, because I can never wipe a squad with it), its lack of a turret, and its very underwhelming Vet 1 ability (which I think needs to be buffed).

The second most common suggestion is to raise its price. Sure, I don't mind a price hike of 5 fuel or so. But any more and I think it would undermine SU's new power in numbers. It would be less spammable, and it needs to be spammable to compete. Let's look at the StuG III Ausf. G. It's superior to the SU-76 in every way. A single StuG can probably wipe SU-76s by the droves if managed properly. Bottom line is, StuG is also an end-game tank destroyer that you can buy mid-game. Except better because it has better stats AND it gets to face weaker tanks. So why is no one rallying for StuG price hikes, but SU-76 price hikes instead? I don't know. The only difference is SU-76s barrage, and hiking up its price past the StuG's merely for its barrage is nonsensical to me.

So there you have it. I'm sorry if it's lengthy, but I have a lot to say after reading everyone's comments on the state of balance. I believe people are not looking at it deeply enough. All people see is a new obstacle which instantly becomes a hindrance and therefore should be moved out of the way by Relic. But tank spam is good, guys. Let it become part of the game, and I think the product will be a much more dynamic Company of Heroes 2.