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Hello. I think that as CoH2's competitive community, we really, truly need to talk about the Panther. I'll start with the stats.
MP Cost: 490
Fuel Cost: 175
Armor: 320
Weapon: Kwk42 75mm
260/240/220 Penetration
160 damage
Poor to nonexistent anti-infantry performance.
5.7/6.3 minimum/maximum reload
Speed: 6.6 maximum, 2.4 acceleration
Hitpoints: 800
Abilities:
Blitzkrieg Tactics (Combat Blitz for OKW)
Panzer Tactician (Doctrinal)
Spotting Scope (Passive, Doctrinal)
MP Cost for earliest access: 1120 (Ostheer)/ 400 (OKW)
Fuel Cost for earliest access: 230 - 20 starting fuel (Ostheer) / 120 - 40 starting fuel (OKW)
Now that I've saved everyone the trouble of digging, I would like to go into what these numbers mean.
Panther has the best armor out of any medium tank in the game by far with 320 armor and 800 hit points, with Sherman Easy Eight coming in the second best with 215 armor with 640 hitpoints and the T-34/85 also coming second with 160 armor and 800 hitpoints.
Panther consistently penetrates both of these tanks at all ranges, with the maximum penetration rate for Easy 8 against Panther being slightly higher than 50% and for T-34/85 being exactly 50% at the closest range. Since the reload rate for these tanks is about the same with T-34/85 actually reloading slower in average than the Panther, it is safe to say that Panther will win every 1v1 engagement with either of these tanks, with a very good chance of killing one and surviving a 2v1 thanks to the incredible shot bounce rate.
Panther is often compared to the 60 range tank destroyers; which Ostheer indeed does not have a non-doctrinal analogue to. However, its 260/240/220 penetration profile is far superior to Jackson's 200/180/160 and SU-85's 200/190/180, and unless multiple Jacksons using their penetration ability consistently are present; Panther is by far the most cost effective tank destroyer. It should also be noted that HVAP does not guarantee penetration on a Panther, and also that Allied tanks generally have less armor than their Axis counterparts, with the notable exception of IS-2. If you do follow World War II materiel outside of Company of Heroes 2, you would know that IS-2 is really more of a comparison to King Tiger than it is to Tiger, in which case, that statement is voided as well.
Panther also has the best abilties. Besides being a sure penetration on almost every Allied tank and having a far better time against Allied heavies than the Allied tank destroyers have against the Axis heavies, Panther can get out of any sticky situation with its veteran ability; Blitzkrieg Tactics (Combat Blitz), quickly get to the maximum range and then outside it to further reduce and then later remove the chance of a penetrating shot. Panzer Tactician provides an additional way to perform this; giving Panther by far the best survivability of any tank destroyer in the game. Indeed; while Elefant and Jagdtiger have far superior armor and health, they will never be able to recover on their own from a flank due to their poor rotation. Meanwhile, Panther is not slower than any of the vehicles that may attempt to flank it, and even has abilities to be invisible to them or go faster. Granted, ground attack can invalidate Panzer Tactician, but it requires a mixture of luck, timing, and player input and most of the time a Panther on blitz is long gone thanks to the incredible acceleration and maximum speed. Secure Mode in contrast isn't really comparable, and Radio Net only truly shines for HE Shermans.
It is often argued that killing tanks is the only thing Panther can do, and then argued that T-34/85 is just as good if not better thanks to its anti-infantry ability. I disagree with these for the following reasons:
1. Panther doesn't need to kill anything else. Multirole tanks are nice to have, but hardly necessary when your infantry scale far better to late game than your opponent's infantry. Indeed; OKW has zero problems with their infantry at late game where they are factually the best and most cost effective, and Ostheer Grenadiers scale generously with their supreme veterancy and LMG42 upgrade. Moreover, the alternative to Panther; Panzer IV is hardly to be considered effective on its own and it requires AT gun support to truly shine. So basically, the people who defend the Panther with the statement that it can only kill tanks are the same people who don't use combined arms in order to get the anti-infantry performance that Panther does not have to fulfill.
2. Panther is not slower than T-34 or Sherman. It is actually far faster during its ability, and it can crush just the same. A lot of T-34/85's anti infantry performance is attributed to its crushing ability as the main cannon has a decent amount of scatter to keep it from being really good at the job consistently, which the Panther has more of thanks to even better speed, less danger involved thanks to higher frontal armor, and no Panzerschreck-tier handheld AT to fear. A T-34/85 fears Panzerfaust more than Panther fears AT grenade, so it could be argued that the Panther is a better crusher here. This is of course balanced by how Allied squads are larger and the T-34/85 main cannon indeed is far superior against infantry; this is just to state that the rift between the two in anti-infantry performance isn't as large as some people would want to believe. Morever, Panther has the same MG upgrade as every other Axis tank, giving it decent utility against infantry and aircraft.
Panther costs 110 MP and 40 fuel more than a Sherman Easy Eight (I may be mistaken, I do not have the doctrine) and costs 90 MP and 35 fuel more than a T-34/85. It has far superior abilities to either and can take on a pair of either tank cost effectively, kill one and then make a getaway, unless RNG is particularly cruel to the Panther and enemy shots consistently penetrate.
It could be argued that Jackson can do similar things to Panzer IVs (SU-85 definetely doesn't), but Jackson gets 3 hit killed by Panzer IV just like it can 3-hit-kill a Panzer IV and at that point all it has as a dedicated tank destroyer over its supposed prey is the range advantage as it cannot even self-spot. Please think this over and then compare it to what Panther does to its supposed equals; Sherman Easy Eight, Jackson, SU-85 and T-34/85, let alone the poor generalists that are T-34/76 and M4A3 Sherman.
We still have players in the forums talking about how Ostheer T4 is accessible too late and that Panther is actually a bad tank because it is so inaccessible. They are entitled to their opinion, but let's talk with numbers.
Ostheer teching, completely teching I mean, costs 1120 MP and 210 fuel accounting for starting fuel. In the meantime, you get your Rifle Grenades and Panzerfausts, analogues of which both Allied factions have to pay for. 210 fuel is actually very, very tame. It's an extremely generous fuel cost when you compare it to the Soviet 340 fuel excluding the grenade upgrades and accounting for starting fuel. Soviets indeed don't have to tech completely; but the fact is that Soviet teching is so ridiculously expensive and pointless that Soviets rely on call-ins and they are factually underpowered without abusing the horribly designed call-in system. That's a can of worms that deserves its own thread, so not now.
My point is, Ostheer teching fuel costs are actually pretty tame as that 210 fuel is if you actually build all tier buildings and not say, skip T3 to save 25 fuel.
So why do some people think Panther is fine despite its extreme cost effectiveness against anything that could be considered its peer while others go as far as to claim it is underpowered and should be made more accessible? The reasons I believe are as follows:
1. Tiger. Call-in meta, full stop. The same 210 fuel it takes to unlock a Panther is the same it takes to buy a Tiger (when you add in the starting fuel). That is completely ridiculous. Tiger can perform similarly, and the amount of extreme cost-effectiveness against any Allied vehicle Panther provides is made up by how Tiger can do the job a bit worse but couple it with great anti-infantry performance, more health, and the same abilities as Panther. This doesn't mean that the Tiger is OP or that Panther is underpowered, it simply means that CoH2 has a serious design flaw that needs to be fixed. It of course should apply to vehicles like IS-2, ISU-152, Elefant etc. as well, in case I haven't made that clear.
2. T-34/85, IS-2, Easy 8 etc. all come far earlier. Why again? Call-in meta. This doesn't need a just as long paragraph; none of those units should come at a teching cost of 0.
3. MP teching costs for Ostheer are absolutely ridiculously insane. A combined reduction of 150 MP would go a very, very long way in fixing Ostheer teching. My suggestion is to focus the reduction on the T2-T3 area so that T3 can be used more often.
Thanks for reading this massive wall of text. Let me know what you think about the Panther below. |
Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
보드카 중대 
VonManteuffel 
Heartless Jäger 
