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Thread: [Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback1 Jan 2021, 18:52 PM So here's maybe an idea for what mobilize reserves could give to penals. Upon getting unlocking Mobilize Reserves: Reduces reinforcement cost of Penals by 2 Unlocks the 'Reinstate' upgrade Reinstate upgrade Cost: 50 munitions - Requires vet 2 Grants: +10% weapon accuracy +10% ROF To the Last Man benefits are increased "After much sacrifice Penals can redeem themselves and are reinstated to their former positions" The main idea I guess is to make Penals hit harder without gaining much on the defensive end. They would still bleed pretty bad but gain the upside of having much better DPS to hopefully keep them relevant in the late game. This should keep them different from 7 man Cons as Cons would be much more efficient manpower wise late game. Penals would be much better at assaulting positions due to their high DPS. This would all need testing ofc but this is just a basic idea for what they could get. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Will they address Panzergrens in the new patch?31 Dec 2020, 19:21 PM Jump back to quoted post31 Dec 2020, 18:16 PMElaindil How is that different from building from HQ? Since both of these buildings are up by BP1 and T1 building is free to build anything by that time? Am I missing something? T1 skips with dead osttruppen will be almost non existant now. Requiring T2 building to be up actually delays a little (they can be left in HQ) That is true and I should've explained this would be only a very minor change meant to make T1 skips less appealing in general. I guess it's less of a change with Ostruppen being put in T1 but as already discussed it makes it a none issue with AssGrens and Pio/MG builds. Hell maybe if you do that you do something else to ostruppen? Put them in the HQ or something? They hopefully wouldn't be an issue since you can't get a super early PzGren and there is that bigger gap when you skip T1 and getting a LV. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: [Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback31 Dec 2020, 17:55 PM Jump back to quoted post31 Dec 2020, 14:41 PMPip IF penals need an upgrade, you merely need to tie it to Mobilise Reserves. Give them a seventh man (A commissar model, perhaps?), or simply have the upgrade turn them into "Strelky" and provide them with better RA, cooldown, and/or just have it hand them ATVs. (While reducing their reinforcement cost) Tying "Mobilise" to both Cons and Penals would be a nice way to tie the units together. This could be an interesting option although I think giving them a 7th man isn't gonna happen. Currently that slight reinforce reduction on the testing server is a nice addition but I do wonder how a bigger buff would help with that. Maybe you could try giving penals a munition upgrade that gives them better dps to make it so they don't act exactly like 7 man cons? Cons would be the more durable and cost effective ones while Penals become harder hitting and better at attacking late game? The ATV could fit into that idea although idk how to exactly what the upgrade should give. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Will they address Panzergrens in the new patch?31 Dec 2020, 17:48 PM Why not just move PzGrens to T1 (and still require BP1 ofc)? That deals with problems they cause in T1 skips and otherwise doesn't really effect them. They would still be quite strong but you at the very least make their fastest timing a bit slower. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: [Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback30 Dec 2020, 20:48 PM Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 18:38 PMVipper And that is why this design issue and not performance issue. You keep saying this like it's something that a balance patch could fix. I couldn't care less about what type of issue it is. The tiers aren't gonna get a massive overhaul, new units aren't coming, and we're left with the current state of T1/Penals. The current buffs to Penals are nice but still leave glaring issues that keep them from being to worth getting. As Hannibal said Penals are meant to be a viable choice without needing tier 2/doctrinal support and to that extent they still fail currently. Again, I couldn't care less about it being bad design it's just what has to be dealt with. In that context Penals need more independent AT or something needs to be figured out to let them get AT. But whatever I've said my piece it's clear this conversation isn't going anywhere. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Will they address Panzergrens in the new patch?30 Dec 2020, 18:06 PM I would honestly prefer just seeing PzGrens go to the T1 building and see what that does. It essentially does nothing to affect their regular timing with a standard opener but would stop the problems they cause when T1 is skipped. You could even revert the nerf to Ostruppen being in T1 and do some other nerf to them like just that manpower increase that was tried out. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: [Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback30 Dec 2020, 16:39 PM Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 16:18 PMVipper Penal will never be fixed because having two mainline infatry in the same faction and expecting them to work independently is simply bad design. That is why PF are designed to co exist with VG and not replace them. Well then Penals fail at that job also because of what they offer compared to T2. Going just pure cons gives you snares, the possibility of an MG and AT gun, and late game scaling with 7 man. T1 gives clown car which is only good for the early game, a sniper which is fine, and Penals which are strong early game but then fall off a cliff late game. Making it easier to backtech to T2 after going penals would be a way to make it easier to incorporate Penals into standard openings. But no matter what Penals still just need more to be viable. Right now they just don't do enough compared to what you give up for them. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: [Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback30 Dec 2020, 15:45 PM Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 15:28 PMKatitof Well, M3 most certainly isn't going to be one and neither is sniper. New units aren't being made, doctrinal units aren't going into stock, T2 isn't going to be reshuffled with T1 and penals are not becoming cons with different name. That means we have to work with current penals. Exactly. Working in the confines of what T1 is gonna give Penals either need to become more efficient on their own or something needs to be done with giving them access to AT. Whether that is like reducing the cost of T2 if you build T1, shuffling some costs around (move some T4 cost to T2 so penal builds get a better timing), or whatever else. The point that Vipper keeps missing is that massive overhauls aren't gonna happen and the smaller changes are all we have to work with. Do Penal in general have issues with their design? Sure but it's long past the point where that could be fixed. So we just have to work with the current state of Penals and in this state they need one of the two things I listed above if you want to make them viable picks. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: [Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback30 Dec 2020, 15:36 PM Moving PzGrens into T1 would be great to see happen. It would stop T1 skips entirely which is one of the biggest issues the makes Ost so powerful in 1v1. Also would be a nerf to ostruppen. Maybe do that and then just give osttruppen a cost increase? Leave them as a call in since they can no longer get fast PzGrens into fast T2. People would have a bigger gap to push back the ostruppen before the Halftack hits. Otherwise if they want to get PzGrens they have to buy T1 which puts them in a more normal timing. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: [Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback30 Dec 2020, 14:58 PM Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 06:01 AMVipper Su-76 will become easier to use, T2 has become easier to tech. Soviet are not USF and Penal are not to Riflemen. As I pointed out previously the problem lies with the idea that Soviet T1 build so be carried on the shoulder of Penals. Trying to turn soviet into USF once the built T1 simple will not work, it will either lead to Penal blobs or it will lead to T1 oblivion. It is high time to accept that and simply change the design. Even then the issue lies in that the SU76 has to directly compete with the T70 as the midgame for Soviets which it just doesn't. And it isn't because the Su76 is bad it's just that the Soviets need something like the T70 to push around LVs and Infantry at the same time (although costing 75 fuel isn't helping T1 when it tries to get T4). Plus it still isn't easy to backtech for AT guns since nothing has been done to help with the stupidly expensive T4. The options Penals have for AT beyond PTRS just still doesn't exist and until something is done to make them getting AT not as expensive/punishing you aren't gonna see Penals be viable. In: COH2 Balance